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tv   Dateline London  BBC News  February 27, 2022 2:30am-3:01am GMT

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�*it �* it was hit of kyiv. reports say it was hit by a russian missile. a curfew is in place for all of sunday. the un refugee agency says invasion has driven more than 150,000 people to flee ukraine to the west and the vast majority have gone to poland, many to join friends and family and others in hungary, moldova, romania as let i was in college including the united states, the eu, canada and the uk is to cut off some russian banks from the swift banking payment system. the eu chip comp is says it was — a ceu chief, ursula von der leyen says it is designed to cripple the financial system of russia. now it is time for dateline london.
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hello and welcome to dateline, the programme which brings together specialist journalist and foreign correspondents who write blog, and broadcast those back home for dateline london. this week has delivered a powerful reminder that although we can communicate with lightning speed across the world, depending on where we are we can see the same set of events very differently. to demilitarise your neighbour, you invade it. to de—nazify it you do what no european leader has done since hitler sent troops into neighbouring countries to �*protect ethnic germans�* and then wiped those nations from the map. and to defend european security you watch from the sidelines as europe's second—largest nation is invaded by the largest. joining us this week, agnes poirier, who explains the uk to readers of the french weekly l'express. pavel bandakov, senior editor of the bbc russian service. and justin rowlatt, who's the bbc�*s environment correspondent, who is here in the studio.
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welcome to all of you. thank you very much for being with us. pavel bandakov, can i start with you first, what is vladimir putin's conception of historic russia and to what extent do you think this has driven the actions he is contemplating and taking? hello. the concept of historic russia made by vladimir putin as a pretext to launch this demilitarisation operation is quite a new thing, apparently. because apparently it started last year from the article he published on his website, the official website of the kremlin, in which he addressed the idea that ukraine is, in fact, not a real state, basically, that it's a project that he called anti—russia and he tried to make the case that, infact, ukraine and russia was always one nation separated by some strange and peculiar twists in history and that it's historically bound together and so on and so forth.
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this concept is, we tried to address it and to run it by the historians, and it has lots of flaws and twists and all in all it it's quite a mixture of various historical concepts and ideas. but basically he says that ukraine has been created by communists and, in his speech before the launch of the attack, he said that ukraine is the country which should be named after vladimir lenin. all in all, it's a very strange
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and very peculiar mixture of various ideas, which does not really fit the idea that putin is up to some sort of a great russia and a recreation of the soviet union and so on and so forth. in essence, it might be so, but all in all it's just his probably personal attitude towards ukraine as a nation and as the russian neighbour. that might create some diplomatic opening, agnes. certainly at the beginning of the week, the elysee palace seemed hopefully could engineer some kind of biden—putin summit, later in the week, president macron was talking about being duped. is there a sense in which his kind of quite pally approach, his friendly approach to president putin, it's all very well to criticise it once the invasion had happened, but it might have been almost a rational response
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from a european leader, to the inability of europe to actually be able to stay his hand, all he could do was try to do was delay it. well, what president macron did was agreed by all the allies and the partners he was talking to at length and for us, before he actually went to his first trip to moscow, if you remember, he was seated on a very, very long table. and weeks before, remember, the beginning of the crisis, whenjoe biden was talking to vladimir putin and all the ukrainians in europe, europe was nowhere to be heard. and france residing on the council of the european union did what it needed to do, and emmanuel macron wanted to give a voice to europe and indeed he did. and he likes taking personal risks.
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it was highly probable that diplomacy would not give anything. but he tried. he tried until, as far as he could, and because as long as you talk, as long as it is not set, there is always a hope for peace. but, obviously, from the moment the tanks from the russian army entered ukraine it was not on the table anymore and the war is here, as emmanuel macron said, and he also added, "we are ready." so we will see that. "the war is here, we are ready." present zelensky sang at the end of the week "we are alone." and you know ukraine, you have visited, give us a sense of those who have not visited the country and that idea of a country alone
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when it is such an enormous country — how profound that is. it is absolutely huge. i think it is 600,000 square kilometres stop in the uk is slightly shy of 200,000 square kilometres. so it is a very, very big country in the centre of europe. it is europe's bread basket — i think slightly more than 10% of europe's wheat comes from ukraine. it is a massive country. when i went it was at the beginning of its emergence as the president, when i first went, yanukovych, was an ally of russia, he was subsequently toppled in the people's rebellion of 2014. i actually fell foul of yanukovych, he actually made a formal complaint to the bbc about my attire, thought i had not been sufficiently respectful. he ended up being rejected by the people of ukraine. that was really the moment of the emergence of not an independent ukraine, it existed as an independent country, but this was ukraine expressing its independence from russia. and this was the source of much
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of the difficulties that have followed the conflict between ukraine and russia. so fiercely independent. a country that i felt, when i went, it is very hard tojudge, that had a very strong sense of identity. they had a very interesting meeting this week stop ijust mentioned in passing with lord brown who used to run bp, negotiated face—to—face with vladimir putin on a number of meetings, met his black labrador as part of the overture that was part of big deal that bp did with a couple of russian companies, a $13.5 billion dealfor oil. he said his experience with putin was a man who was incredibly bureaucratic. born out of the bureaucratic society of the ussr, he had planned to invade ukraine. it was almost certain that this was a plan that was on rails
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and he was determined to deliver it, this was the outcome we were going to get whatever the rest of europe are indeed the world said to vladimir putin. and that's really interesting. when i was talking to adam smith at the beginning of the week in us congress, he was basically saying that really there is not much western countries, including washington, could do, in practical terms, except trying to delay whatever it was that president putin was trying to do. i suppose the question is whether russian public opinion over a longer term period will see this as an advantageous thing, given, from what you said, about the kind of, perhaps, rather week historic argument in which he hasjustified it. public opinion in russia is interesting at the moment. because we cannot see yet what is the real attitude and the real numbers
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of what russians are thinking about the current crisis. but, certainly, there is some confusion in there. and if we would compare this, these events with an annexation of crimea, it is totally different. because, yes, we saw back in 2014, when crimea was annexed by russia, we saw that most russians cheered this and they were really happy and they — the support for vladimir putin went through the roof because crimea was perceived as something, as a symbol of russia, of a revival, where is now it is more like confusion. and it is really... it is not understandable what is going on. it is a full—scale war, which the consequences of this would be heard and felt throughout russia as well as throughout ukraine.
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and that is why it is quite difficult to estimate the real support of the population to what is going on. we have a situation where sanctions is the weapon of choice, agnes, for the west. you have alluded to this already and the efforts that are ongoing. by the end of the week we had two sets of sanctions imposed on russia. some argument over some of the detail is still ongoing. in terms of the hoped—for impact, the question, i suppose, is notjust the impact on russia, but the impact on western european economies on the americans, on the other nato countries, that are signing up to these sanctions. from the european perspective, what are the implications of going down this route? well, they are very important. it is notjust a question
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of agreeing on a package and then we all go back to our respective capitals and we go back to our daily lives and just pray that ukraine, you know, fights on behalf of europe. no, it will have massive long—term implications, because if the eu is the biggest commercial partner of russia we also know that in terms of energy, which we will be talking about a bit later, europe is incredibly dependent on russian gas and oil, for instance, and, you know, sanctions which the eu will need to actually not sharp, i think, as kyiv and all the big cities are under siege and the pressure will be higherfor the eu to actually take harsher and harsher sanctions and we are seeing, for instance, what is being discussed is cutting off russia from swift, but also freezing the personal assets
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of vladimir putin and sergey lavrov, it has all been talked about. you have european countries who want to have an incremental plan of sanctions, you know, to do it gradually. others want to strike as quickly as possible. but it is a sort of mental shift. it is almost a paradigm shift, because it is a long—term process. it is here to stay. and sanctions will have an effect across all policy areas of the european union. we have a sort of permanent crisis. it will, in many cases, aggravate challenges that we already face in europe.
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also, it means that public opinion in europe, which might want the government to decide on very high sanctions against russia, will also need to accept that it has a cost. of course, it is not a high price to pay if you consider that ukrainians are going to pay with their lives, whereas in europe they are just going to play with euros. just on this, i have a ukrainian friend who lives in kyiv, she said, look, what do these sanctions do, how are they going to stop bombs, how are they going to stop missiles? they're not! she's absolutely — and not only that, she makes the point, you are not even taking the really serious sanctions against russia, which would be to stop buying its main export, which is its energy, we could stop buying gas and oilfrom russia. you know, in theory. i mean, the problem is, and this is the real riddle for europe is that it can't actually do that because we are so dependent on russia.
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even in uk, we don't have much gas storage, so we can't look for other sources longer term. we are still beholden to this. we are. we are not immediately depended on the russians and get our gas from elsewhere in the uk. but, absolutely, we need constant supplies of these things. in fact, there hasn't even been a negotiation about should we be imposing sanctions on oil and gas. so thatjust tells us how challenging this is. i mean, on that, and picking up on the point, look at the impact this has had on fuel prices. imean, i mean, across europe people are feeling the effects. people are feeling the effects across europe and across the world. we are seeing some of the highest petrol some of the highest petrol prices we have ever seen in the uk. gas prices are spiking. imean, an i mean, an extraordinary increase in gas, let me give you the figures because they are so striking. a year ago in the uk, we were paying 40p a therm,
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that is about 50 us cents a therm. now we are paying £2.75. that is $3.70. what an increase. it's creating a huge political crisis here in britain because the cost of living is rising so dramatically. and even in washington, joe biden is under a lot of pressure over gas prices at the price people play on the forecourts at the gas stations. what in the uk we would call petrol but historically, petrol and diesel and the other fuels, they refer to as gas. but that money problem is an international problem now, isn't it? anything of this kind that affects big supply is going to have an impact on so much for climate change. we might touch on arguments. we may come back to you on that as our bbc climate correspondent. as our bbc climate corresondent. . ., correspondent. climate editor! climate editor! _ just in terms of that, in practical terms, what that,
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$620 billion of reserves. the debt levels are down. presumably, china can only step insofar, even if it is minded to, to step in to stop the gap. well, it an interesting example what _ well, it an interesting example what happened back in 2010 when europe _ what happened back in 2010 when europe imposed the first round of sanctions following crimea. 0ne of sanctions following crimea. one of— of sanctions following crimea. one of the retaliation measures which _ one of the retaliation measures which brush undertook back then was biden... the import of certain_ was biden... the import of certain products from the european union, and that was things— european union, and that was things like cheese and, you know. _ things like cheese and, you know, chocolate and other things _ know, chocolate and other things. for instance, you still cannot— things. for instance, you still cannot buy italian parmesan or spanish — cannot buy italian parmesan or spanishjamon in russia. and
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that— spanishjamon in russia. and that was_ spanishjamon in russia. and that was of course, but had some — that was of course, but had some sort of effect on the european farmers but it had an even _ european farmers but it had an even bigger effect on the russian consumers. it is always strange to assess the real impact of sanctions on the politics in russia, on the regime, because the population is not that affected with certain measures we saw before. but they are more affected with countermeasures the russian government is trying to undertake. what we saw so far, let's say the collapse of air traffic between russia and european countries, between russia and britain, that's happened already.
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so there are no direct flights and there will be no direct flights— and there will be no direct flights in months to come and that certainly has a detrimental effect on certain parts — detrimental effect on certain parts of— detrimental effect on certain parts of the russian society but not _ parts of the russian society but not for the economy in generah _ but not for the economy in general. and the rest will be, and up — general. and the rest will be, and up untilyou general. and the rest will be, and up until you mentioned, certain— and up until you mentioned, certain sectors would be targeted, it would be fine for probably for the government to sustain— probably for the government to sustain spending with current reserves _ sustain spending with current reserves. but as we can see, it looks_ reserves. but as we can see, it looks like — reserves. but as we can see, it looks like europe and the us and other governments are trying — and other governments are trying to— and other governments are trying to step up and even now, we are — trying to step up and even now, we are in— trying to step up and even now, we are in the middle of discussions and we can hear those — discussions and we can hear those discussions that it's not enough — those discussions that it's not enough and probably, we should target _ enough and probably, we should target the financial markets more — target the financial markets more and so on and so forth and, — more and so on and so forth and. of— more and so on and so forth and, of course, russia has chim— and, of course, russia has china but_ and, of course, russia has china but it's difficult to diverse _ china but it's difficult to diverse the coal trades towards
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china _ diverse the coal trades towards china and — diverse the coal trades towards china and substitute the european trade agreements. interest, — european trade agreements. interest, presumably, there is a twin strategy here, sanctions which impart and the people around britain and the people who travel the people who have some wealth abroad, bought houses in london or have a holiday home in bulgaria or wherever it may be —— around putin. but simultaneously, the ukrainians, i've heard it referred to people as the porcupine strategy, ukrainians themselves will kind of make it so difficult for russia to sustain, at the very least, any kind of change of regime or any kind of change of regime or any kind of change of regime or any kind of potentially occupation of even parts of the bit that they've crossed over into, but that could be the two together could force a rethink of vladimir putin's approach. well, i mean, you know, it's very— well, i mean, you know, it's very hard _ well, i mean, you know, it's very hard for— well, i mean, you know, it's very hard for us— well, i mean, you know, it's very hard for us because, i well, i mean, you know, it'sl very hard for us because, you know. for us_ very hard for us because, you know. for us in— very hard for us because, you know, for us in europe, - very hard for us because, you i know, for us in europe, because this is— know, for us in europe, because this is a — know, for us in europe, because this is a european _ know, for us in europe, because this is a european war _ know, for us in europe, because this is a european war taking - this is a european war taking place. — this is a european war taking place. you _ this is a european war taking place, you know, _ this is a european war taking place, you know, two - this is a european war taking place, you know, two hoursl
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this is a european war taking - place, you know, two hours from london _ place, you know, two hours from london by — place, you know, two hours from london tiy plane _ place, you know, two hours from london by plane and _ place, you know, two hours from london by plane and we - place, you know, two hours from london by plane and we know . london by plane and we know we're — london by plane and we know we're not _ london by plane and we know we're not going _ london by plane and we know we're not going to _ london by plane and we know we're not going to be - london by plane and we know we're not going to be fighting| we're not going to be fighting alongside _ we're not going to be fighting alongside ukraine, _ we're not going to be fighting alongside ukraine, we - we're not going to be fighting alongside ukraine, we know. alongside ukraine, we know that — alongside ukraine, we know that we _ alongside ukraine, we know that. we know— alongside ukraine, we know that. we know we _ alongside ukraine, we know that. we know we can - alongside ukraine, we know that. we know we can only. alongside ukraine, we know. that. we know we can only do sanctions _ that. we know we can only do sanctions. however, - that. we know we can only do sanctions. however, we - that. we know we can only do sanctions. however, we can. that. we know we can only dol sanctions. however, we can do that. we know we can only do i sanctions. however, we can do a lot. sanctions. however, we can do a lot they're _ sanctions. however, we can do a lot they're not— sanctions. however, we can do a lot. they're not going _ sanctions. however, we can do a lot. they're not going to - sanctions. however, we can do a lot. they're not going to have i lot. they're not going to have overnight _ lot. they're not going to have overnight effects. _ lot. they're not going to have overnight effects. and - lot. they're not going to have overnight effects. and the - overnight effects. and the state _ overnight effects. and the state of _ overnight effects. and the state of disbelief - overnight effects. and the state of disbelief you - overnight effects. and the state of disbelief you see i overnight effects. and the i state of disbelief you see in ukraine _ state of disbelief you see in ukraine but— state of disbelief you see in ukraine but also _ state of disbelief you see in ukraine but also in- state of disbelief you see in ukraine but also in europe, | state of disbelief you see in i ukraine but also in europe, we are all. — ukraine but also in europe, we are all. you _ ukraine but also in europe, we are all, you know, _ ukraine but also in europe, we are all, you know, we - ukraine but also in europe, we are all, you know, we don't- are all, you know, we don't have — are all, you know, we don't have - _ are all, you know, we don't have - it's— are all, you know, we don't have — it's going _ are all, you know, we don't have — it's going to- are all, you know, we don't have — it's going to take . are all, you know, we don't. have — it's going to take time for us — have — it's going to take time for us to, _ have — it's going to take time for us to, you _ have — it's going to take time for us to, you know, - have — it's going to take time i for us to, you know, understand and to— for us to, you know, understand and to realise _ for us to, you know, understand and to realise that _ for us to, you know, understand and to realise that we _ for us to, you know, understand and to realise that we now- for us to, you know, understand and to realise that we now have | and to realise that we now have entered — and to realise that we now have entered a — and to realise that we now have entered a new _ and to realise that we now have entered a new phase _ and to realise that we now have entered a new phase in - and to realise that we now have i entered a new phase in european history _ entered a new phase in european histo . �* , entered a new phase in european histo . . , , ., history. and this is quite a profound _ history. and this is quite a profound challenge, - history. and this is quite a profound challenge, isn'tl history. and this is quite a i profound challenge, isn't it, because the whole basis of the nato alliance was notjust we protect each other from a target, from the warsaw pact, actually, it was a concept of europe. the kind of stretching beyond the membership of nato. it's quite a challenge, isn't
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it? we say we cannot fight for this country, the nato countries are saying that, the western capitals are saying that, but in a sense, what is it for? macron talks about it being brain—dead as a concept. isn't there a danger that that's how it looks after an event of this kind?- that's how it looks after an event of this kind? well, on one hand — event of this kind? well, on one hand you _ event of this kind? well, on one hand you could - event of this kind? well, on one hand you could say - event of this kind? well, on one hand you could say thatj event of this kind? well, on - one hand you could say that the irony _ one hand you could say that the irony of — one hand you could say that the irony of course _ one hand you could say that the irony of course is _ one hand you could say that the irony of course is something - irony of course is something branded _ irony of course is something branded nato_ irony of course is something branded nato is— irony of course is something branded nato is being - branded nato is being resurrected _ branded nato is being resurrected and - branded nato is being resurrected and it - branded nato is being resurrected and it hasj resurrected and it has triggered _ resurrected and it has triggered article - triggered article four on friday— triggered article four on friday and _ triggered article four on friday and it _ triggered article four on friday and it needs - triggered article four on friday and it needs to l triggered article four on i friday and it needs to show that— friday and it needs to show that it _ friday and it needs to show that it is _ friday and it needs to show that it is therefore - friday and it needs to show that it is therefore a - friday and it needs to showl that it is therefore a reason. -- there _ that it is therefore a reason. -- there for— that it is therefore a reason. -- there for a _ that it is therefore a reason. —— there for a reason. - that it is therefore a reason. —— there for a reason. but . that it is therefore a reason. i —— there for a reason. but we have — —— there for a reason. but we have treen— —— there for a reason. but we have been talking _ —— there for a reason. but we have been talking about - —— there for a reason. but we have been talking about howl have been talking about how international— have been talking about how international institutions - have been talking about howl international institutions such as the — international institutions such as the un, _ international institutions such as the un, for— international institutions such as the un, for instance, - international institutions such as the un, for instance, or. as the un, for instance, or nato — as the un, for instance, or nato were _ as the un, for instance, or nato were not _ as the un, for instance, or nato were not fit _ as the un, for instance, or nato were not fit for- as the un, for instance, or nato were not fit for the i as the un, for instance, or. nato were not fit for the 21st century _ nato were not fit for the 21st century. and _ nato were not fit for the 21st century. and when _ nato were not fit for the 21stj century. and when president macron— century. and when president macron talked _ century. and when president macron talked about - century. and when president. macron talked about brain—dead nato, _ macron talked about brain—dead nato, he — macron talked about brain—dead nato, he meant, _ macron talked about brain—dead nato, he meant, actually, - macron talked about brain—dead nato, he meant, actually, we i nato, he meant, actually, we can't — nato, he meant, actually, we can't does _
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nato, he meant, actually, we can't does make _ nato, he meant, actually, we can't does make when- nato, he meant, actually, we can't does make when i- nato, he meant, actually, we can't does make when i say. nato, he meant, actually, we . can't does make when i say we, talking — can't does make when i say we, talking about _ can't does make when i say we, talking about europe _ can't does make when i say we, talking about europe and - talking about europe and european, _ talking about europe and european, we _ talking about europe and european, we can- talking about europe andj european, we can always talking about europe and - european, we can always rely on america — european, we can always rely on america to — european, we can always rely on america to protect _ european, we can always rely on america to protect us _ european, we can always rely on america to protect us and - european, we can always rely on america to protect us and to - european, we can always rely on america to protect us and to be i america to protect us and to be responsible _ america to protect us and to be responsible for— america to protect us and to be responsible for security. - america to protect us and to be responsible for security. and i responsible for security. and especially _ responsible for security. and especially in _ responsible for security. and especially in the _ responsible for security. and especially in the time - responsible for security. and especially in the time of - especially in the time of donald _ especially in the time of donald trump, - especially in the time of donald trump, in - especially in the time of - donald trump, in washington. and you — donald trump, in washington. and you know. _ donald trump, in washington. and you know, it's _ donald trump, in washington. and you know, it's interesting| and you know, it's interesting of what — and you know, it's interesting of what president _ and you know, it's interesting of what president macron - and you know, it's interestingj of what president macron said in the — of what president macron said in the early— of what president macron said in the early hours _ of what president macron said in the early hours after - of what president macron said in the early hours after the . in the early hours after the european _ in the early hours after the european council— in the early hours after the european council on - in the early hours after the european council on friday| european council on friday nrorning _ european council on friday nrorning he _ european council on friday morning. he said - european council on friday morning. he said the - european council on friday- morning. he said the european union — morning. he said the european union is — morning. he said the european union isjust. _ morning. he said the european union isjust, is— morning. he said the european union isjust, is not— morning. he said the european union isjust, is notjust - morning. he said the european union isjust, is notjust a - union isjust, is notjust a market— union isjust, is notjust a market of— union isjust, is notjust a market of consumers. - union isjust, is notjust aj market of consumers. we union isjust, is notjust a - market of consumers. we now need _ market of consumers. we now need to— market of consumers. we now need to be _ market of consumers. we now need to be a _ market of consumers. we now need to be a power, _ market of consumers. we now need to be a power, to - market of consumers. we now need to be a power, to project power~ — need to be a power, to project power and _ need to be a power, to project power. and we _ need to be a power, to project power. and we need _ need to be a power, to project power. and we need to - power. and we need to accelerate _ power. and we need to accelerate or— power. and we need to accelerate or project i power. and we need to. accelerate or project our sovereignty, _ accelerate or project our sovereignty, those - accelerate or project our sovereignty, those are l accelerate or project our i sovereignty, those are his words _ sovereignty, those are his words he's _ sovereignty, those are his words. he's been - sovereignty, those are his words. he's been talking. sovereignty, those are his- words. he's been talking about it for— words. he's been talking about it for a — words. he's been talking about it for a long _ words. he's been talking about it for a long time. _ words. he's been talking about it for a long time. that's - words. he's been talking about it for a long time. that's his. it for a long time. that's his main — it for a long time. that's his main idea _ it for a long time. that's his main idea. but _ it for a long time. that's his main idea. but europe, - it for a long time. that's hisj main idea. but europe, that it for a long time. that's his. main idea. but europe, that we must _ main idea. but europe, that we must become _ main idea. but europe, that we must become independent - main idea. but europe, that we must become independent or, i must become independent or,
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certainty. _ must become independent or, certainly. more _ must become independent or, certainly, more independent. certainly, more independent militarily, _ certainly, more independent militarily, and _ certainly, more independent militarily, and it's— certainly, more independent militarily, and it's very - militarily, and it's very interesting _ militarily, and it's very interesting because i militarily, and it's veryi interesting because the thinking _ interesting because the thinking in _ interesting because the thinking in military- interesting because the . thinking in military circles interesting because the - thinking in military circles in france — thinking in military circles in france but _ thinking in military circles in france but also _ thinking in military circles in france but also in _ thinking in military circles in france but also in europe i thinking in military circles in france but also in europe in| france but also in europe in the — france but also in europe in the last— france but also in europe in the last few _ france but also in europe in the last few years _ france but also in europe in the last few years is - france but also in europe in the last few years is that, l france but also in europe in. the last few years is that, you know. — the last few years is that, you know. 30 _ the last few years is that, you know, 30 years _ the last few years is that, you know, 30 years ago, - the last few years is that, youi know, 30 years ago, european armies— know, 30 years ago, european armies were — know, 30 years ago, european armies were taking _ know, 30 years ago, european armies were taking part - know, 30 years ago, european armies were taking part in - armies were taking part in peacekeeping _ armies were taking part in peacekeeping missions. . armies were taking part in i peacekeeping missions. then armies were taking part in - peacekeeping missions. then in the last— peacekeeping missions. then in the last ten— peacekeeping missions. then in the last ten years, _ peacekeeping missions. then in the last ten years, the - peacekeeping missions. then in the last ten years, the french . the last ten years, the french army— the last ten years, the french army took— the last ten years, the french army took part _ the last ten years, the french army took part in _ army took part in l counterinsurgency army took part in - counterinsurgency and counterterrorism - counterinsurgency and - counterterrorism operations, for instance. _ counterterrorism operations, for instance, in— counterterrorism operations, for instance, in africa. - counterterrorism operations, for instance, in africa. but i for instance, in africa. but the — for instance, in africa. but the thinking _ for instance, in africa. but the thinking there - for instance, in africa. but the thinking there is- for instance, in africa. but the thinking there is we i for instance, in africa. but i the thinking there is we need to change _ the thinking there is we need to change scale, _ the thinking there is we need to change scale, to _ the thinking there is we need to change scale, to reform, i the thinking there is we needl to change scale, to reform, to invest. — to change scale, to reform, to invest. to _ to change scale, to reform, to invest, to modernise - to change scale, to reform, to invest, to modernise our- invest, to modernise our military— invest, to modernise our military and _ invest, to modernise our military and kotupna - invest, to modernise our- military and kotupna training for what _ military and kotupna training for what they _ military and kotupna training for what they call— military and kotupna training for what they call high - military and kotupna training for what they call high end i for what they call high end war~ — for what they call high end war~ -- _ for what they call high end war. —— toughen _ for what they call high end war. —— toughen our- for what they call high end i war. —— toughen our training. you— war. —— toughen our training. you can— war. —— toughen our training. you canatso— war. —— toughen our training. you can also call— war. —— toughen our training. you can also call it _ war. —— toughen our training. you can also call it state - war. —— toughen our training. you can also call it state on l you can also call it state on state — you can also call it state on state conflict. _ you can also call it state on state conflict.— you can also call it state on state conflict. microwave one, this has been _ state conflict. microwave one, this has been an _ state conflict. microwave one, this has been an opportunity i this has been an opportunity that macron could seize. the russian perspective? —— favel. yes, and as we saw nato, and
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nato — yes, and as we saw nato, and nato is — yes, and as we saw nato, and nato is the _ yes, and as we saw nato, and nato is the key factor in his reasoning, presented before launching this operation in ukraine, _ launching this operation in ukraine, russia or launching this operation in ukraine, russia oeradimir ukraine, russia or vladimir putin— ukraine, russia or vladimir putin saw— ukraine, russia oeradimir putin saw nato as a threat for quite — putin saw nato as a threat for quite some time. and an enlargement of nato and the inclusion of western european countries _ inclusion of western european countries within nato. seen as a direct— countries within nato. seen as a direct threat, probably less so militarily but clearly ideological. and in this respect, i tend to agree that several— respect, i tend to agree that several years ago, nato might have _ several years ago, nato might have been rendered or irrelevant on so many aspects. favetm — irrelevant on so many aspects. favel. .. �* , favel. .. but this time, it looks like _
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favel. .. but this time, it looks like nato - favel. .. but this time, it looks like nato even - favel. .. but this time, it looks like nato even in i looks like nato even in ideological terms, looks like nato even in ideologicalterms, if looks like nato even in ideological terms, if putin repeats _ ideological terms, if putin repeats it, nato seems irrelevant because at least this— irrelevant because at least this is— irrelevant because at least this is how it is seen. favel. it is of very _ this is how it is seen. favel. it is of very good _ this is how it is seen. favel. it is of very good point - this is how it is seen. favel. it is of very good point to i this is how it is seen. favel. | it is of very good point to end on, this potential revival, but perhaps for all of the wrong reasons. thank you all very much. that is all from dateline london. goodbye. hello. the weather through the remainder of the weekend is continuing on that fairly dry, settled theme. we've got high pressure in charge of our weather. a bit more cloud pushing in and breeze across northern ireland and scotland but certainly, for england and wales, we've had fairly clear skies on saturday and it's going to be a similar picture into sunday as well.
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here's is the satellite image. it shows this area of cloud out to the north—west of the uk. this is a weather front which is just starting to move in. you can see the proximity of the isobars. there's some breezier weather across northern and western areas but as this front pushes its way eastwards, it bumps into a big area of high pressure, so it's tending to fizzle out through the day on sunday. certainly a chilly start, particularly for england and wales, with a touch of frost around. also for eastern scotland, a bit of a chilly start. plenty of sunshine for most areas. we have got this weak front draped through the irish sea, bringing more cloud to parts of western scotland. northern ireland, a few spots of drizzle here, and a bit of that cloud into the likes of pembrokeshire and cornwall, too. but light, southerly winds for most of us, so if you've got the blue sky and the sunshine, it's going to feel quite pleasant out there with temperatures between around about 8—11 degrees on sunday. and as we move through into the the evening hours, then, initially, things are still looking quite dry and clear and we keep the clear spells for longest across eastern england. but from the west, this next band of cloud and patchy rain moves in. this is another weather front,
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and that's going to be with us to start off monday morning. so, not as cold first thing monday — certainly compared to first thing sunday — because we've got more cloud, outbreaks of rain and more of a breeze around, too. so, monday's weather, then, will be dominated by this frontal system which slowly pushes its way eastwards across much of the uk. i think it'll be quite slow to reach east anglia and the south—east, so here, you may well keep some sunny spells through the course of the day on monday but elsewhere, a fair bit of cloud. windy conditions — gales possible up towards the western isles, for instance — and that rain will clear out of scotland and northern ireland, but it will be quite slow—moving moving for parts of northern england —— quite slow—moving for parts of northern england into wales, down towards the south—west as well. another fairly mild day — temperatures up to around 12 degrees. heading on into tuesday and high pressure sits across much of the uk, but we've got this trailing frontal system, so that may welljust spill some rain across some southern counties of england, perhaps into south wales as well, but there's still some uncertainty about exactly how far north or south this system is going to be. but across much of the uk, we are thinking that high pressure will dominate, bringing a lot of dry and settled weather. a touch cooler, i think, on tuesday.
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looking ahead towards the middle of the week, still a bit of rain lingering in the south on wednesday and more rain in the north—west by thursday. bye— bye.
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before too long. thank you so much forjoining us. _ welcome to bbc news. our top stories. another terrifying night for the citizens of kyiv with reports of a massive explosion south—west of the capital. this is the seen live in the city as people seek shelter from further russian military attack. the exodus grows. over100,000 military attack. the exodus grows. over 100,000 have already fled to neighbouring countries. tougher sanctions on russia as the eu calls for a number of russian banks to be removed from the swift banking system. away from the front lines, international condemnation. protests taking place around the world. and china's dilemma. what does beijing's make of moscow's wall. we speak to an expert on the

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