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tv   The Papers  BBC News  December 29, 2021 10:30pm-10:46pm GMT

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but it was six various charges here, but it was pretty clear from the beginning that the one thing we did know was that jeffrey epstein was involved in having sex with underage women, he admitted it back in 2005 in a terminal case back then, and ghislaine maxwell was around him at that time, so she must have known what was going on. so she would have been... and thejudge been... and the judge already pointed out to the jury at the very beginning that that made her, would have made are culpable if she had willfully ignored what was going on. and in terms of what came to light during the evidence we heard in this trial of ghislaine maxwell, did we learn anything new about what had happened between jeffrey learn anything new about what had happened betweenjeffrey epstein and his victims? mat
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happened between jeffrey epstein and his victims? ., ., , happened between jeffrey epstein and hisvictims? ., ., , , , happened between jeffrey epstein and hisvictims? ., his victims? not really, because so much of this _ his victims? not really, because so much of this had _ his victims? not really, because so much of this had been _ his victims? not really, because so much of this had been covered - much of this had been covered worldwide in the press already. i think we were all rather surprised at how there were only four women brought by the prosecution in this case, when i think there were over 150 compensated by epstein�*s estate for similar matters, so that was rather surprising, and then the defence reallyjust rather surprising, and then the defence really just was rather surprising, and then the defence reallyjust was not there. elizabeth loftus, a professor who had talked about this. memory system, anything that is not recognised by the american psychological association, has only appeared for the persecution once in 100 cases, and surely witnesses for
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the prosecution, if they can have false memories, witnesses for the defence can have false memories too. what do you think the applications are going forward with the civil trial —— the implications? against prince andrew, queen elizabeth's son? do you think this affects that at all? i son? do you think this affects that at all? ~ �* , at all? i think it will. but first, there's a hearing _ at all? i think it will. but first, there's a hearing on _ at all? i think it will. but first, there's a hearing on january i at all? i think it will. but first, | there's a hearing on january the there's a hearing onjanuary the 1lth, there's a hearing onjanuary the 4th, where there trying —— the defence or try to get the whole case thrown out. one of the grounds is the fact that virginia giuffre, who is suing prince andrew, claimed in the complaint that she
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was resident in colorado, which is in residence in australia, which would technically make the jurisdiction of the court in jeopardy. however, now that glenn maxwell has been —— lee mansell has been found —— ghislaine maxwell has been found guilty of trafficking, that picture of her with virginia giuffre and prince andrew in her house in belgrade via is rather difficult to explain. when we look at the situation, i suppose there was a sense that ghislaine maxwell was much more in the spotlight after the death of jeffrey epstein, in a way that perhaps she would not have done had he still been alive was
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undoubtedly ——? undoubtedly --? undoubtedly. it is... she shortly not have been in the spotlight in this way, and the defence did make a reasonable argument that she was a scapegoat in this case. however, thejury did not fall for that. we this case. however, the “my did not fan for that.— fall for that. we have heard that the “ail fall for that. we have heard that the jail terms — fall for that. we have heard that the jail terms could _ fall for that. we have heard that the jail terms could be - fall for that. we have heard that the jail terms could be 40 - fall for that. we have heard that the jail terms could be 40 years| fall for that. we have heard that i the jail terms could be 40 years on the jail terms could be 40 years on the most serious of the charges she has been found guilty of it. this would mean ghislaine maxwell spends the rest of her days behind bars. it would, but i am not a lawyer, and you just heard from professor dershowitz, who is more of an expert on these things and i am, and as he says, there is bound to be a round
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of appeals. even on the grounds that, how should she possibly have... these matters have been publicised world round. {lilia have... these matters have been publicised world round. 0k, nigel cawthorne. _ publicised world round. 0k, nigel cawthorne, thank _ publicised world round. 0k, nigel cawthorne, thank you _ publicised world round. 0k, nigel cawthorne, thank you for - publicised world round. 0k, nigel| cawthorne, thank you for speaking publicised world round. 0k, nigel- cawthorne, thank you for speaking to us on bbc news. in the last few minutes, we've had this statement from the us attorney's office — it says... the us attorneys office goes on to
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say... let's speak to the prominent us lawyer lisa bloom, who has represented eight women who say they were abused byjeffrey epstein. lisa, just give us a sense, if you can, of how much it takes for a victim of a crime of this sort to summon the courage to go to court and face the person who has put them through such a terrible ordeal. h0 through such a terrible ordeal. no one through such a terrible ordeal. i157 one wants through such a terrible ordeal. its one wants to do it, nobody wants to go to court and testify in a sexual assault trial. most people would even call an attorney, most people willjust somehow managed to live with it. he takes extraordinary courage. not only to go in and testify, in front of a roomful of strangers, but then to be cross—examined for an hour after hour about every detail of their life about the motive of the adding aspects of your life, and that is what for limited in this case —— the
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most embarrassing. there was no money in it for them. they did it because they wanted to getjustice against ghislaine maxwell, convicted sex trafficker glenn maxwell, i can now say. —— ghislaine maxwell. what now say. -- ghislaine maxwell. what im act now say. -- ghislaine maxwell. what impact does — now say. -- ghislaine maxwell. what impact does it _ now say. -- ghislaine maxwell. what impact does it have _ now say. -- ghislaine maxwell. what impact does it have her _ now say. —— ghislaine maxwell. what impact does it have her other victims of sexual abuse and trafficking, crimes of this nature? what is it —— what does it do in terms of supporting them and wanting to see their abusers face justice? it is their abusers face “ustice? it is tremendously _ theirabusers facejustice? it 3 tremendously inspiring and it lifts up tremendously inspiring and it lifts up all of the survivors of sexual abuse. i can tell you i represent many sexual abuse victims right now, scores and stores of them and some of them have reach out to me and said, maybe i can really win in my case because now i see this is what's happened in elaine maxwell's case. maybe i can endure the slow legal process. whatever it takes,
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because these women did it. keep in mind, these victims were abused in the 1990s and in the early to thousands. and now it is 2021 for some they been living with this ray long—time. any farmer, the fourth 20 testify to in the trial, was abused —— annie farmer. it was in 1996. all of these years later, finally, we have justice. of these years later, finally, we havejustice. it of these years later, finally, we have justice-— of these years later, finally, we have justice. have “ustice. it took several days of have justice. it took several days ofthe have justice. it took several days of the liberation. _ have justice. it took several days of the liberation. hallak - have justice. it took several days of the liberation. hallak and - have justice. it took several days | of the liberation. hallak and eyes and is that for those who have given evidence —— deliberation, how agonising is that? it is evidence -- deliberation, how agonising is that? it is agonising, and as a trial _ agonising is that? it is agonising, and as a trial attorney _ agonising is that? it is agonising, and as a trial attorney myself, i agonising is that? it is agonising, l and as a trial attorney myself, that is the hardest part, because i have control over what i say and do in the trial and then all of the evidence is in, closing argument are in and then we just have to wait, and for the victims, it is 100 times
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worse. all they can do is... i told them to take the faith. i was concerned as the days were dragging on and they were adding more questions and did not reach a decision before christmas, i was concerned, does someone not have reasonable doubt? you need to have unanimity on juries, reasonable doubt? you need to have unanimity onjuries, because if reasonable doubt? you need to have unanimity on juries, because if one person does not decide, you do not have a verdict, so it was definitely an agonising time, but well worth it. but thejury an agonising time, but well worth it. but the jury did a good an agonising time, but well worth it. but thejury did a good job, because they asked for transco after transcript. after see the transcript of almost every witness who testified at the trial. at photos. they looked at everything. they ultimately in my opinion came to the right decision. the ultimately in my opinion came to the right decision-— right decision. the two of them, jeffrey epstein _ right decision. the two of them, jeffrey epstein and _ right decision. the two of them, jeffrey epstein and ghislaine - jeffrey epstein and ghislaine maxwell, these were wealthy people, they moved in influential circles, they moved in influential circles, they were powerful. does this say that, in a matter how wealthy, no matter how well—connected you are,
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you cannot get away with this sort of thing? does this send a message to people who are survivors of abuse at the hands of people who they think will never be brought to justice, but actually ultimately justice, but actually ultimately justice can be done?— justice, but actually ultimately justice can be done? there is no auestion justice can be done? there is no question that. — justice can be done? there is no question that, in _ justice can be done? there is no question that, in our _ justice can be done? there is no question that, in our chris - —— from justice system, having money gives you power. i am not could be pollyanna ——iam —— i am not going to be pollyanna —ish. because ghislaine maxwell has walked free underserved 60 years —— on this she got six years of freedom, whereas i think other people who are less wealthy and powerful would have had a lot less, but it does show us there is always hope, and i want to say that before accusing testified, they are imperfect people. they admitted to drug objection, to
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selling sex for money, to having prior inconsistent statements, to having asserted claims for money, which i don't think is a bad thing, that was used against them. all that came out at the trial and they endured it, but you know what? the jury saw through it was not they saw you don't have to be a perfect person to come forward with a claim of sexual abuse. and especially when there are four women with similar stories, i think that is what really sealed it for them. {lilia stories, i think that is what really sealed it for them.— stories, i think that is what really sealed it for them. 0k, lisa bloom, us lawyer. — sealed it for them. 0k, lisa bloom, us lawyer. thank — sealed it for them. 0k, lisa bloom, us lawyer, thank you _ sealed it for them. 0k, lisa bloom, us lawyer, thank you very - sealed it for them. 0k, lisa bloom, us lawyer, thank you very much - us lawyer, thank you very much indeed. just a reminder of our breaking news that the british socialite ghislaine maxwell has been convicted of facilitating and participating in the sexual abuse of teenage girls. the case against ghislaine maxwell has raised questions about her friendship with prince andrew. the duke of york, who is facing a separate civil court case in the united states, was mentioned by prosecution witnesses in claims about maxwell and her relationship with
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jeffrey epstein. here's our royal correspondent nicholas witchell. caught by the camera in this now infamous photograph, on the left, prince andrew, in the centre, the then 17—year—old virginia roberts and on the right, smiling for the camera, ghislaine maxwell. andrew's friendship with ghislaine maxwell goes back more than 20 years. here he is with her injune 2000, at the time, she wasjeffrey epstein's girlfriend. epstein was there as well. he too was a guest of prince andrew. andrew spoke about his friendship with epstein and his girlfriend, ghislaine maxwell, in his newsnight interview. into 2000, e stein was his newsnight interview. into 2000, epstein was a _ his newsnight interview. into 2000, epstein was a guest _ his newsnight interview. into 2000, epstein was a guest at _ his newsnight interview. into 2000, epstein was a guest at windsor - epstein was a guest at windsor castle and at sandringham. he was brought right into the heart of the royal family at your invitation. but certainly in _ royal family at your invitation. but certainly in my invitation, not at the royal— certainly in my invitation, not at the royal family's invitation, but remember— the royal family's invitation, but remember that it was his girlfriend
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that was— remember that it was his girlfriend that was the key element in this. he was, _ that was the key element in this. he was, as— that was the key element in this. he was, as it _ that was the key element in this. he was, as it were, the plus one to some extent. was, as it were, the plus one to some extent-— was, as it were, the plus one to some extent. and irate in thinking ou threw some extent. and irate in thinking you threw a _ some extent. and irate in thinking you threw a birthday _ some extent. and irate in thinking you threw a birthday for _ some extent. and irate in thinking you threw a birthday for epstein'sl you threw a birthday for epstein's girlfriend, ghislaine maxwell, at sandringham? lilo. girlfriend, ghislaine maxwell, at sandringham?— sandringham? no, it was eight shootin: sandringham? no, it was eight shooting weekend, _ sandringham? no, it was eight - shooting weekend, straightforward shooting _ shooting weekend, straightforward shooting weekend. this shooting weekend, straightforward shooting weekend. this photograph in exhibit at maxwell's _ shooting weekend. this photograph in exhibit at maxwell's trial _ shooting weekend. this photograph in exhibit at maxwell's trial in _ shooting weekend. this photograph in exhibit at maxwell's trial in new - exhibit at maxwell's trial in new york shows epstein and maxwell relaxing at the queen's the state. they were there at andrew's invitation. andrew categorically denies knowing of any improper activities by epstein or anyone else. his lawyers are mounting a robust defence against the civil lawsuit brought against him in new york by virginia roberts, or virginia giuffre as she is now known. in a submission to the court, andrew's legal team say the case should be dismissed. they said the
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allegation because some are baseless and motivated by giuffre's desire for a payday at his expense of whatever the truth of the allegations, it is true edger and a long—lasting friendship with ghislaine maxwell. it is to her whom he turned to when the accusation surface. he e—mailed maxwell... he wrote, to which maxwell replied to... however, by the time andrew did his interview with newsnight, he seems to want to distance himself from his old friend. if seems to want to distance himself from his old friend.— from his old friend. if there are questions _ from his old friend. if there are questions that _ from his old friend. if there are questions that ghislaine - from his old friend. if there are questions that ghislaine has i from his old friend. if there are questions that ghislaine has to | questions that ghislaine has to answer. — questions that ghislaine has to answer, that is her problem, i'm afraid _ answer, that is her problem, i'm afraid i— answer, that is her problem, i'm afraid iam— answer, that is her problem, i'm afraid. lam not in answer, that is her problem, i'm afraid. i am not in a position to answer— afraid. i am not in a position to answer one _ afraid. i am not in a position to answer one way or another. the court in new york — answer one way or another. the court in new york has _ answer one way or another. the court in new york has delivered _ answer one way or another. the court in new york has delivered its - in new york has delivered its verdict on glenn maxwell. in ——
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against ghislaine maxwell. in weeks, another court will decide in the civil lawsuit. andrew's lawyers will once again proclaim his innocence of any impropriety. let's speak to tara palmeri — host of two podcasts, broken: seeking justice and power: the maxwells. is this the outcome you were expecting? is this the outcome you were “petting?— is this the outcome you were exectina? , , ., expecting? definitely the outcome i was expeeting- _ expecting? definitely the outcome i was expecting. given _ expecting? definitely the outcome i was expecting. given how— expecting? definitely the outcome i was expecting. given how long - expecting? definitely the outcome i was expecting. given how long the l was expecting. given how long the jury was expecting. given how long the jury took to deliberate, understanding what it was like in jeffrey epstein's house, and he went to the staff, the pilot, the show for, they wanted to know what people could see and how they observed ghislaine maxwell living with jeffrey epstein and being so integral to the sex trafficking operation. this isjust in addition to the many, many stories we have heard from so many women, almost
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identical stories, about being

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