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tv   Afghanistan  BBC News  September 26, 2021 2:30pm-3:01pm BST

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to think about how religion serve people who frankly for many very good reasons don't have the same level of time and resource to put into them. it can feel a lot like pouring endless resource down a black hole, if you are always trying to get young people to come and and be very, very active. what people in that 18 to 40 be very, very active. what people in that 18 to a0 demographic need is not an institution that demands more and more of them, they need a community that is welcoming and inclusive about them. and do you think some denominations are doing that better than others? i think that is a large part of what we are seeing with the constant story that accompanies all the talk
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about decline in several decades, which is the rise of evangelical religions, which have been very adept at putting on unique young people, where they are, kinds of events. i think the more traditional forms of religious institutions are really missing a trick, because i think there are a lot of young people who want that kind of traditional, middle of the road religious expression but can't quite get on—board the institutional structures that it comes packaged in the. . ~' , ., structures that it comes packaged in the. . ~ . structures that it comes packaged in the. . . ., the. thank you so much for taking the. thank you so much for taking the time to _ the. thank you so much for taking the time to speak _ the. thank you so much for taking the time to speak to _ the. thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us _ the. thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us and - the. thank you so much for taking l the time to speak to us and sharing your thoughts. the time to speak to us and sharing yourthoughts. now let's the time to speak to us and sharing your thoughts. now let's have a look at the weather forecast. a big change on the way with things
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turning much cooler and more autumnal over the next few days. todayis autumnal over the next few days. today is the last of this run of days with the temperature above where it should be at this time of year. quite a warm feel with spells of sunshine but western scotland and northern ireland overshadowed by heavy rain and gusty winds. rain and strong winds will track further east as we head through the evening, not really reaching eastern parts of england until after dawn. temperature at 10— 15 but the rain reaches all remaining areas, a very 5°99y reaches all remaining areas, a very soggy start, that's clears with sunshine and showers on a brisk breeze. some of the showers heavy and thundery but with a much fresher field. we stick with the cooler field. we stick with the cooler field through the week ahead with showers and longer spells of rain. 0ften showers and longer spells of rain. often when they saw feeling more autumnal.
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this is bbc news. the headlines. ministers urge the public not to panic buy petrol as the petrol retailers association tells the bbc that between 50 and 90% of a courts have run dry. that between 50 and 9096 of a courts have run dry-— have run dry. there is actually len have run dry. there is actually plenty of _ have run dry. there is actually plenty of petrol _ have run dry. there is actually plenty of petrol to _ have run dry. there is actually plenty of petrol to go - have run dry. there is actually plenty of petrol to go around, | have run dry. there is actually - plenty of petrol to go around, this is an unnecessary situation with queues forming even though we have all the fuel we need in refineries and storage centres in the uk. labour leader keir starmer says the 5000 temporary visas issued for lorry drivers are not enough to ease disruption to fuel and food supplies. disruption to fuel and food supplies-— disruption to fuel and food su lies. . ' :: :: :: :: :: supplies. there are 100,000 vacancies _ supplies. there are 100,000 vacancies for _ supplies. there are 100,000 vacancies for drivers - supplies. there are 100,000 vacancies for drivers in - supplies. there are 100,000 vacancies for drivers in this l vacancies for drivers in this country— vacancies for drivers in this country and the government says we will bring _ country and the government says we will bring in — country and the government says we will bring in 5000 visas, there is an obvious — will bring in 5000 visas, there is an obvious problem. at will bring in 5000 visas, there is an obvious problem.— will bring in 5000 visas, there is an obvious problem. at the labour party conference _ an obvious problem. at the labour party conference deputy _ an obvious problem. at the labour party conference deputy leader - party conference deputy leader angela rayner is criticised for
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calling borisjohnson scum. investigators have arrested a 50 —year—old man on suspicion of murder after what scotland yard said was a significant development. now on bbc news, in an exclusive interview, john simpson talks to pakistan's prime minister imran khan about the taliban takeover of afghanistan. just over a month ago, the taliban swept into afg hanistan's capital, kabul. their lightning advance lasted only a few weeks, and they eventually walked into the capital without a fight, as former president ashraf ghani and much of his cabinet fled. a panicked evacuation ensued. now, the world is watching as the taliban form their government. exactly how they intend to rule remains unclear. the ministry for the propagation of virtue and prevention of vice is back, and last week, the taliban barred girls
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from secondary schools, with only boys and male teachers allowed back. in an exclusive interview, i speak to pakistan's prime minister, imran khan, about events in neighbouring afghanistan. i ask him how he intends to hold the new taliban government to account on human rights, and if they'll recognise afg hanistan's new rulers. prime minister, i suppose you're quite glad about what's happened in afghanistan. it suits pakistan very nicely, doesn't it? john, i'm glad because we were anticipating the sort of bloodbath that took place after the soviets withdrew from afghanistan in 1989. almost 200,000 afghans died in that 5—6 year period, so we were petrified here that when the us left, there would be a bloodbath, a similar bloodbath.
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and for pakistan, there were consequences — most of all, refugees. we already have 3 million refugees and we have no capacity to take any more. and secondly, if there was a protracted civil war in afghanistan, that too would have had implications for pakistan. so, from that point of view, no bloodshed. relatively, it has been a peaceful takeover. so, up to now, yes. but what happens from now on is a lot of concern to us. but the taliban are really a pakistani creation, aren't they? absolutely not. taliban were creation of the environment. after the soviets left, the warlords started fighting each other, and in that chaos emerged taliban.
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and why did taliban emerge? because they gave people a semblance of rule of law which did not exist before. previously — this is before taliban took over — every 50 miles, there was a checkpoint, there was a warlord who would then take money, and so it was a fractured afghanistan after the soviets left. so, taliban gave people a semblance of rule of law, and that's why they prevailed in afghanistan. but taliban came out of nowhere at that time — i'm talking about 96. but now, they also came out of nowhere, and many of the educated people, the more advanced people of afghanistan are leaving in their thousands because they're terrified of the organisation which you
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actually seem to approve of. john, that's not true. first of all, you must understand that afghanistan is a history. afghanistan has resisted invaders throughout their history, and from people like us from 2008 onwards, i went specifically to the think tanks, i metjoe biden, i met john kerry, the senator at the time, and i explained to them there would not be a military solution. and at that time, they could have had some political solution — in other words, an inclusive government — but the us kept going for a military solution, which there wasn't one. so, pakistan was not responsible for what this current situation.
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it was actually the coalition trying to find a military solution which didn't exist. we never knew what the us, what their ideal victory was in afghanistan. if it was al-qaeda and 0sama bin laden, al-qaeda was decimated in the first two years. it was finished. so, what did us hope to achieve? nation—building, democracy, liberating the women — whatever the aims were, they would not be military action. when the taliban took over, you were quoted as saying that afghanistan had thrown off the shackles of slavery. you must be really embarrassed by that. look, first of all, i was making a speech. the speech was about, we were in inaugurating for the first time one government
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for the whole country. until pakistan inherited this colonial system which was for a tiny elite, it was the english medium, education system. so, we had this two tier system in place, and my exact words were that mental slavery is far more difficult to straight off than physical slavery, and i mentioned afghanistan. it was in that context. it was just translated into english and came out not as i intended. i understand that. but this is a really good opportunity for you now to say you condemn the excesses of the taliban and you feel by preventing women from getting a decent education once again, they're taking the wrong direction. would you like to say
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that to us now? john, absolutely. 0ur religion, if anyone has any idea of what this was, it was a liberation of women. 0ur prophet, peace be upon him, we regard him as someone who gives rights to women. who freed slaves and gives equal rights to minorities. he ended racism. so, we look upon him with enlightenment. so, the idea that women should not get educated, is not islamic. it might have been some rural culture in afghanistan, but it has nothing to do with religion.
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can i say what the taliban did instead was, i mean, it's very encouraging. they say they have an inclusive government, they say they will have work, get an education. they will give... these are encouraging statements. so you're approving the way the taliban are operating? no, i'm approving of what they have said. what happens now, john, i'm afraid i can't say. no one can tell where afghanistan goes from here, but what we hope and pray that after a0 years, the people of afghanistan will have peace and stability.
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and you'll give the taliban time to show whether they're the kind of government you can approve of, or will you say to them they've got to shape up and behave properly? you know, i think this is a great opportunity for the international community to actually incentivise taliban to walk the talk, what they said, to make sure they go in the direction. because as compared to last time, i find that the taliban are seeking international acceptability. i think they recognise that the situation in afghanistan, unless the international community helps them, this could really spiral out of control and it could really... there could be a huge humanitarian crisis. so i think they are reaching out to the international community, and that gives leverage
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to the international community to make sure the statements they've made actually implemented. i must say from my own experience in afghanistan, what tends to happen is the taliban leaders say one thing, but real day—to—day moment by moment power exists in the hands of the vigilantes that go around the streets. they're the ones that decide what the state of afghan society is. and it doesn't really matter what the top taliban leaders say, life is still going to be pretty terrible for ordinary afg ha ns. john, again, i cannot say which way afghanistan will go from here. as i said, we are quite tense that if... and my biggest worry right now is the looming humanitarian crisis.
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clearly, there are factions within the taliban. they're clearly the taliban who are at the helm, trying to get international acceptability. but then, there are those who have been in the field for 20 years, who would claim they've given a lot of sacrifices. i would imagine there would be many problems within the taliban. so, where's this goes, i'm afraid i'm not in a position to say what will happen. but i know what we want to happen. if they can stick to the statements they have made, it could be a new beginning. is that what the head of your intelligence organisation told the taliban leadership when he went there the other day? the head of isi when he went there, his main concern was there were three different
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terrorist groups that have been attacks in pakistan. one is isis. isis has conducted can tear terrorist attacks... the pakistani taliban who were in afghanistan who conducted attacks. thirdly, the separatists who use afghan soil to conduct attacks. so, our main concern is that afghan soil should not be used for terrorism in pakistan. i see that, ijust find it hard to understand how pakistan taliban could be terrorists in pakistan because my view, but not the taliban that they supports in afghanistan.
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surely they're terrorist in those terms. butjohn, pakistan sided with the international coalition with the united states after 9/11. pakistan is the country that suffered more than any other coalition. in fact, all the coalition partners put together, they not even suffer a fraction of the casualties what this country went through. 80,000 pakistanis died because wejoined this war against the taliban. remember, we were the coalition. all the logistical support to fight the taliban or dislodge them went to pakistan. pakistan was an ally, and the only ally that almost... there was a point we thought we were going down because there were 50 different military groups attacking the state
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of pakistan, and there were different types of pakistani taliban. there were no militant taliban in pakistan. so we were considered collaborators. the groups we had trained who were fighting the soviets, they called pakistan collaborators and targeted us. so, this country took the greatest amount of suffering by being part of the coalition. so, the reason why the taliban are back in power is not because of pakistan. if you want to know the real reason why they're back in power, all you have to do is an analysis. why did 300,000 well—equipped afghan army give up without a fight to 65, 70,000 lightly armed militia?
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if you go into the details, which we have, that is the reason why the taliban are back in power. it's not because of pakistan. pakistan has one really important lever that it could lose to get what it wants in afghanistan. and that is the question of recognising the taliban as the legitimate government. are you going to do that? just one thing, john, i want to make clear. people don't understand the afghan character. afghans are a country which do not accept outside interference. we were a country in 2001 that recognised the taliban government. when after 9/11 the us asked us to help them flush out al-qaeda or asked the taliban to give up 0sama bin
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laden, pakistan tried its best. they flatly refused pakistan. so, this idea that afghanistan can be controlled from outside, its never happened. the moment any head of afghanistan is perceived as a foreign partner, he loses credibility. what you say is pakistan has recognition. i have spoken to a conference and i spoke to all the neighbours— iran, uzbekkistan. i spoke to the president there. all of us decided we will collectively take a decision to recognise afghanistan. that decision would depend upon will
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they have an inclusive government? their assurance of human rights and that afghan soil should not be used for terrorism, and neighbours are the most worried about that. so, that's where it lies. does that mean that you will recognise them if they agreed those three points? we will collectively take a decision. pakistan itself will not decide on its own? no. exactly. we think that all the neighbours will get together and we will see how they progress, and whether to recognise them or not will be a collective decision. and the fact is that taliban don't have an inclusive government. they haven't got the taliban people who've helped them into power. they haven't got the non—taliban people who've helped them into power. they've been excluded so far.
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so far, they haven't got an inclusive government. as we hoped they would. but they say this is just a transition, this is not the final government. and we are trying. i am trying that we should speak to them and ensure that they do have an inclusive government because there will not be any long—term sustainable peace and stability in afghanistan. unless all groups are represented. but there's something more important than anything from the taliban government, and that's the kind of purity of their ideology, their religious ideology. they're never going to allow women to go to schools or anything like that because it cuts across their whole notion of what a society should be.
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i think they will allow women to go to schools. they will allow that. they say they're doing it in phases, but that remains to be seen. what they do from now onwards, we can only hope to persuade them and encourage them and incentivise them in that direction. but sitting today, what happens, where they will go, i'm afraid i don't know. but you can influence it by helping the other countries to decide to recognise them or not to? we have already... i told you, i've already spoken to all the neighbours. i've spoken to the iranian president,
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tajikistan and uzebekistan, they are the most relevant. and we have all decided that unless and until there is an inclusive government and as the respect for human rights, it would not be possible for us to recognise them. so, it really does depend on what they themselves do? absolutely. let me tell you from pakistan, our biggest worry. our biggest worry is that this will be a huge humanitarian crisis, and that would immediately lead to a refugee problem. secondly, if they do not have an inclusive government and it gradually descends into a civil war, which if they do not include all the factions, sooner or later they will have again, a sort of civil war. that too will impact pakistan. it will be an unstable afghanistan.
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ideal placed for terrorists because there's no control, that is a worry. so, terrorism from afghan soil and secondly, if there is a humanitarian crisis or a civil war, a refugee issue for us. can ijust ask you, just go back on something you said — the taliban leadership has assured you or suggested that it will allow women's education again? how strong was the assurance? public statements. their spokesman came on television and said women will be allowed to work, they will be allowed to study. he used it in the islamic context. so, i guess what he means by islamic context is they will have segregation.
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before, of course, they would blow up girls�* schools and kill anyone in them. i know. this idea of not allowing girls to study, believe me, has nothing to do with religion. because we give special stipends to our girls, we give them extra money so they will put girls in school. when you've seen what happens here in afghanistan, you must be pretty disgusted with the way the taliban are behaving. i think, john, what we should hope for and try for is to make them go into that direction. and in the statements they've made, and secondly, afghans are very strong people. i mean, as a race,
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they're very strong. the women are very strong. i feel, give them time and they will assert their rights. how much time? years? a year, two years, three years? three years? at the moment, john, it's just too early to say anything because it's barely been a month. after 20 years of civil war, they have come back into power. in a short period of time, we will know the direction they are going. i think we know it now. i don't know. i'm an optimist. i think there is a chance that there will be peace in afghanistan after a0 years, and once there's peace and stability, the afghan people strong enough, they will reserve their rights. afghan history shows us that
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movements like the taliban leaders don't really last very long. they lasted five years last time. this is not a permanent answer to afghanistan's problems, is it? i don't think so. i think this isjust the beginning. as i said, where it goes from here, no one can predict. but what we hope is they will have peace. so, peace is the key, and we hope that once there's peace, afghanistan will move in the right direction. there is a big change on the way.
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things turning much cooler and more autumnal over the next few days. todayis autumnal over the next few days. today is the last of this run of days with the temperature above where it should be at this time of year, a warm feel with spells of sunshine but western scotland and northern ireland clouding over with outbreaks of pretty heavy rain accompanied by gusty winds. the rain and strong winds will track further east through this evening into tonight. not reaching eastern parts of england untiljust after dawn. the temperature between 10 and 15. quite mild but the rain reaching all remaining areas. a soggy start in the east, sunshine and showers from the east, sunshine and showers from the west. some showers heavy and thundery but with a cooler and fresher field. thundery but with a cooler and fresherfield. we thundery but with a cooler and fresher field. we stick with the cooler field through the week ahead, showers and longer spells of rain, often when they saw feeling more autumnal.
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this is bbc news with the latest headlines... ministers urged the public not to panic by fuel as the petrol retailers association tells the bbc that as many as 90% of their members forecourts have run dry. there is plenty of petrol to go around. this is an unnecessary situation where there are queues that are forming even though we have all the fuel that we need in the refineries and storage centres in the uk. ., ., ,, the uk. labour leader sir keir starmer says _ the uk. labour leader sir keir starmer says the _ the uk. labour leader sir keir starmer says the 5000 - the uk. labour leader sir keir - starmer says the 5000 temporary visas the government will issue for foreign lorry drivers are not enough to ease disruption to fuel and food supplies. to ease disruption to fuel and food su lies. , ' :: :: :: :: :: to ease disruption to fuel and food su--lies. us: 11:11: . , supplies. there is 100,000 vacancies for drivers in — supplies. there is 100,000 vacancies for drivers in this _ supplies. there is 100,000 vacancies for drivers in this country _ supplies. there is 100,000 vacancies for drivers in this country and - supplies. there is 100,000 vacancies for drivers in this country and the - for drivers in this country and the government is saying, we are going to bring in 5000 visas. there is an
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obvious problem.

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