tv Studio B Unscripted Maria Ressa Christopher Wylie P1 Al Jazeera January 19, 2022 7:30pm-8:01pm AST
also save more than $50000000000.00 in debt. payments for rico was the 1st u. s. territory to ever declare bankruptcy. and the 2017. it had more than a $120000000000.00 and liabilities. the 1st tickets have gone on sale to the general public for the serious football world cup and cats. har fans can apply via the fif a website to enter the ballot. the lowest price globally is around $70.00. local residents in katara can benefit from subsidized tickets with prices starting in just $11.00 for the group matches. it's the cheapest at the world cup. since mexico 1986. lou. this is al jazeera. here are the top stories. the u. s. secretary of state has warned that russia could attack ukraine at a very short notice. anthony blink and how talks with the ukranian president vladimir zalinski and kiev,
and his urge russia to choose diplomacy over confrontation about that? how me it has the latest from kia? i think that done, do ukrainian side, you get a says that the is as sort of urgency. you craig, would like to see those sanctions that the u. s. and the you have been warning about to happen sooner rather than later. there was right there would like to see actually quite tough sanctions against russia. at some point, there were rumors that may be the u. s. was mulling expelling russia from the swift system, which is basically the global system to send and receive money, especially germany. be against that. where you are secretary state also setting here that unity within ukraine was important for maintaining its strand. this comes as former president, petra per shank of faces treason charges. on wednesday, a judge rejected a request by prosecutors to arrest him for shank. oh has been accused of dozens of crimes including helping pro russia separately. sell millions of dollars worth of
coal. the billionaire was president from 2014 to 20. 19. he says that chargers were concocted by allies of the current president, while others, lensky, britons, prime minister, has again to parliament. he will be resigning over the so called party gay scandal . or is johnson urged everyone to wait for the outcome of an inquiry into parties in his downing street home during corona virus locked down. a cord and germany has begun to hearing a case against a syrian doctor accused of crimes against humanity. he's facing 18 counts of torturing detainees and homes and damascus between 20112012 is also accused of killing one person charges. the doctor denied for news at the top of the hour right here on alger 0, but up next the studio be unscripted. bye bye. ah
ah, why journalists under attack because democracy is under it. because you attack the truth tellers because the integrity of fax is gone. when i started seeing videos of people so angry with things that were frankly untrue. and i realize i was working for something i was evil. and i had been a part of actually creating it. when mark soccer bird essentially said that it is okay for politicians to lie, that spells doom. ah, my name is maria theresa and i'm a journalist and author the message that the government is sending is very clear.
be silent or your next. i receive thousands of death threats online. i'm christopher wiley. i'm a data scientist, but most people know me as the cambridge analytical whistleblower, facebook knew about cambridge analytic is seen since 2015 before the story broke. facebook threatened to see the guardian and then band me for whistle blowing. i revealed how our data is being manipulated political gain without our consent. since rapper started reporting, president detective doesn't work. i've been repeatedly charged and arrested. it makes you feel vulnerable, but i think that's the point, right. i'm inspired by ha, maria continues to stand up for the truth in the face of real danger. christmas revelations lead to the largest b,
the crime investigation in history. if we allow cheating in our democratic personnel, and we allow this amount, what about next time? what about the time after that? we know 1st hand what happens when social media is weaponized and the danger it now poses to our democracies around the world. this is an existential movement. and it's time for us all to ah, the the, so good to talk to you, you figured out and then you created a system. you taught yourself how to code, you learn the data, and then you built this whole system that was very efficient as modifying behavior . and then you decided to take it down. when did you decide it was?
well, when i 1st joined the company that later became cambridge analytics at the l group, i joined the company that at the time was working on projects that were geared towards counter extremism encounter radicalization. looking at how extremism spreads online and we got discovered by a guy by the name of you've been who long story short, got a billionaire to acquire the company. and what i saw was that i had worked on a system that got essentially inverted to radicalize young men in the united states. and that, you know, witnessing the inception of an insurgency the already campaign. and so when i started seeing videos of people all and focus groups, who were so angry with things that were frankly untrue. you know,
i realize i was working for something that was evil. and i had, you know, being a part of actually creating a and i couldn't keep doing that. it's interesting when you said you were looking at it for a counter radicalization at 1st i came to it because i, i was looking at how social network analysis spread the ideology of terrorism. yeah . and we created rapid because if you can convince people to blow themselves up with this radical ideology, why couldn't you have something's hard for good. yeah. right. that's why we created rattler. but then when you started seeing the negative part, it's hard to pull yourself out. how'd and to be a whistleblower? what gave you the courage to do that? yeah, i think at least for me you know, growing up kind of, i've an outsider. i was probably in a wheelchair when i was growing up because of a invisible disability. and then i live on top of that sort of being clear. i came
out as it was. so barbara, i've been coming out for my entire life and you know, for me it's that sense of otherness that and comfortable with being uncomfortable. yeah. that i think gave me a little bit of a nudge to help me become, become with a bar, but with setting up rattler. and you know, being on the outside, i think you're going out there every single day. pissing off a lot of people. i try not do you find that you know, your life's journey sort of influences that? oh gosh i so i, i was born in the philippines and then moved the united states when marcia los declared in 1972. but when i was with americans, i never felt completely american. and when i'm filled with philipino, i don't feel completely filipino either. so i guess it's that it's the otherness part of it, right. and that, that's a good training for journalists or with the line or whistle blowing. but you find
that there's a bit of an overlap because not that i would ever call myself a journalist. but in some sense, as i feel similar, there is something similar about that, you know, shoving uncomfortable information into people face it going, you have to pay attention to this and then feeling the consequences of that. so i was gonna say that's the mission of journalism, right? you speak truth to power and you know, power doesn't like that in your and i think you've been speaking truth. i mean, there's a cost to yourself, but you also seem to learn something more from each instance that you've done that . has this been a good experience or a bad experience? the mixed bag, i guess. i mean, i think it's been on the hor, a good ex perience for i've learned a lot. so, you know,
you know, after watching 2016 happen and knowing so many things about what was going on, you know, i learned that i do feel compelled to speak uncomfortable truth. but at the same time, you know, you know, getting called to testify. congress, you know, as the 20 somethings gave or living in london, it's not something that you really expect to be part of your life's journey. that was pretty intimidating is pretty to me, to have, you know, the department of justice. now the i sitting behind me and you know, giving me a subpoena after that but i think on the whole, it's been a good experience because if you think back before 2018, the idea that privacy or data protection, you know, the internet would be a mainstream political issue in the 2020 election and the primary race would kind
of be laughable. so i feel like at least in not sense, exposing wrongdoing and exposing the structure is that facilitate and support that wrong doing with companies like facebook. yeah. have at least opened up an awareness into our conversation and our mainstream political discourse, i think, is productive. how easy is it to manipulate math on a mass? gail, i get frustrated a lot by the, the current sort of discussion about election manipulation because it focuses on the united states and britain because britain in the united states, and i'm sure coming from the philippines. you know, this for while have been manipulating elections and democracies around the world for hundreds of years. britain was a empire a you know, the reason why, you know, the national drink in britain is t. and, you know, national animal is a lion. and, you know, these are not natural things here. and so i think the reason why
people are so upset in the united states or in britain or other parts of europe is an american voter. now understands what it feels like to be an african voter. because, you know, living in a country where you've got a gradually eroding information system where lies are everywhere, where you don't know what to trust. you've got foreign countries left right and center, trying to manipulate your trick. you deceive you and corruption rife in the administration, looking at the philippines and something that i'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on coming from an ex us connie, where you had a large country dictating the terms of how government works. you know, it's, you know, becoming independent. yeah. and now having a large american corporations run by a bunch of straight white dudes in america, starting to influence at least what information is allowed or not allowed to
exist, or what gets amplified and promoted. or what does thing in the philippines do you, do you feel like there is a sort of neo colonialism happening on line? so you're, you're the 1st person i heard say the colonialism never died. it just moved on line . right. and i think we talked about facebook as the 1st level, which i mean, frankly, the collapse that roshan of our institutions began on facebook. with the description of the philippines. sally carno wrote in our image and he described the philippines as a country that spent 450 years in a convent and 50 years in hollywood. we were colonized by spain and then the united states. and i think it's ironic that the country that gave democracy is also the the place where silicon valley then has given some one like to terry
burleson. aro, these types of authoritarian leaders who work or killing democracy, the power to do it to manipulate people. but i think we all know that the are countries in the global south bear the brunt of all the tech decisions that have been made. right? i mean, how do we get power, how we've never really had a seat at the table in these things. and we bear the worse. do you think that you should get the table? sure, that's part. i mean, part of the reason i can speak about it is because i can articulated in a way that the west can understand you currently are, you know, challenging and allegedly, and arguably corrupt regime. what does it mean for you to say give us a c other table? do you give a corrupt regime a seat other table to talk about now?
so i think one of the things this time show us is exactly how human behavior is universal regardless of culture in many ways. because a very same things that manipulate americans and europeans are the very same things that manipulate us in the global south. we just don't have the institutions to fight back and look how weak your institutions have gotten here. um, behavioral modification system. ah, how do we fix it? i, i've been a journalist for this almost 35 years. it's never been as hard to work as a journalist says it is to date. i have to post bill 8 times. my government filed 11 cases and in death did 11 cases and investigations that year and then began arresting me in 2019 1st arrest was valentine's. that was wild and i have a valentine o n. my government seems to work very well in february this february. you
know, they've, they've gone and filed a similar case against the largest broadcaster in the philippines. what would you say? you know, to see your critics in the philippines about the charges that you know, the government has lodged against yo, did you break the law? oh my lord, i know i am challenging power, right? we continue to do our jobs and we will continue the line. i always use this, we are going to hold the line because the philippine constitution, like the united states constitution has a bill of rights where pattern after the united states constitution. and let me ask you this, what the cambridge analytic could do in the philippines. the company operated in many places around the world. this is something that also i learned spending time there that you know it's, it's really profitable. so go and corrupts government because governments have
like really monetize zable os that you've got sovereignty. it's something that's really hard for our company to replicate. and you know, with that you can, you can dictate mineral rise resource, right. passports, all kinds of things in the philippines, you know, they had an office there, you know, the story of the philippines. you guys kind of got trump before everybody else. okay. yeah. you're facing present and quite serious charges, least 80 years. why do you care so much? because then wouldn't it be easier to just go somewhere else? i mean, i could tosses in question that you why you became a whistleblower right? because this is the time that matters. because if i didn't stand up for the standards and ethics, the mission of journalism when it matters, then everything else i did beforehand doesn't matter. and then i'm not who i am.
defining who you are. oh, i hate this, i'm sure. ah, i hate that the baton was passed to me now, but that's why it matters a how do we get civic engagement when people don't know the facts? i don't think we can, it's kind of like what we're doing right now. we're sitting on a stage. we're having a discussion. there is an audience they know that we're talking. and if i say something that's not true or somebody can call us out, or a journalist can call us what we have now, is a situation where i can become invisible. and i can go and whisper in everybody's ear and they all hear something different, right? and i can do that now with the benefit of having followed everybody in the audience around for years and years and years reading through their text messages, listening to their phones, looking at everything that they look at,
even when they don't realize that they're being watched. and i don't think that we can have a functioning democracy when there is no longer public discourse because everything has become privatized. and oftentimes people can't, don't even know if they're receiving something that is targeted or not, which again goes back to if you get rid of transparency, you get rid of accountability and you get rid of democracy. we can take questions from the audience. maria julie is edie. from the international center for journalists, i've spent time with you and with your news organizations, and i know that you have learned a lot as a result of the orchestra, this information campaigns, the deliberate targeting of journalists and rattler. in particular, given that we're talking particularly about what christopher has referred to as porting, if these problems from the global south to the west. can you tell us sitting here
in london? what's journalists in particular, dealing with these problems now can do to prepare themselves. oh lord, ah, so if i think this is an existential moment for democracy, globally, journalism, the death of journalism, i won't say the death of journalist, but the death of journalism is only the 1st signal for the death of democracy. our dystopian president is your dystopian future if we don't do anything right now. and of course, with elections coming up in the united states. it's a huge problem. but what are the danger signals the fact that we don't know the facts. one, the fact that you don't know whom to trust because in the philippines, the 1st targets of packs and these are exponential attacks, right? i was getting an average of 90 hate 90 heat messages per hour. in the philippines,
in 2016, our data showed that women were attacked at least 10 times more than men. so massaged jenny sexism, the kind of gender, sexual life gender, the pac on women. what's the end goal? you pound someone to silence so that a whole narrative collapses. and then the voice with the loudest, mega fullness amplified bottom up, and then top down our president. for example, the attacks against me and rap lar. we were attacked for a year on facebook and social media. and then after that, a year later, president to character said the same exact thing, which is like astro turf thing. it is. it leaves the groundwork for what the government does. you are all living through something similar is just our institutions crumbled within 6 months. your institutions are
a little bit stronger than ours, but human beings behave the same way. and the lack of trust is ushering in a whole new ah, 93940 s. right? all of a sudden we're looking at hash of them and i guess this is why i'm so scared and i want silicon valley. i want the west who have stronger institutions to do something more about it. because if we don't, instead of a year or 2 years of this, we're going to look at decades of fascism. my question to you, christopher, i am from kenya. you works for cambridge analytical nairobi of a 70 people who died may be directly or indirectly related to the role of cambridge . and they took her question then is, is it legal or moral for british or american funds to work in countries like her was and take advantage of lack of regulations and yet continue to operate. this is
something that i found most shocking when you've got a, a company in country a, let's say it's in britain engaging with multiple firms and contractors each and their own jurisdiction. creating this information or hate propaganda that were entirely in britain would be wholly illegal. and then disseminating that in another country, because you've got so many different players involved. and so many different components of wrong doing, it's actually really difficult to figure out where technically did a crime occur in, in, in taxable. we're just starting to, you know, create principles and rules that prevent people from just hopping from one jurisdiction to another. but with data and the internet,
we are where tax law was in 1950, not realizing that the snap is global, that data is global. that this information can be global. we lack, you know, not only the, the actual institutions to, to police, but we actually lack like principals. and so lawmakers start to understand, actually how the internet works. i don't mean not sarcastically, like, as in that it is actually global. and that we need to create principles that bed in, embrace that global ness. lots of wrongdoing can happen. maria, you have been tread since and yet continued your fight. i'm originally from turkey and living in discovery for the last 20 years. and in my country, many journalists are in jail now, and many others are afraid of writing speaking. and so what do you say
about journalism and fear? we've never been as vulnerable as we are today. because power in countries like yours and mine ah, has taken what the internet, what social media, what company like cambridge analytic gun, it is. it isn't only cambridge analytical. we now have filipino companies like cambridge analytical, right. they are the ones taking advantage of it. why is it that the bad guys are the ones who are taking these, these tools of manipulation and using them against us for us, for someone like chandler dar, for example, right? he had to flee his country and he made the decision to do that for fear of his life. others are dying up. we see this and every single report that comes out about journalism. why have journalists under attack? because democracy is under attack because you attacked the truth tellers because
the integrity of facts is ah, gone, right? we're not agreeing on the facts and the internet. the way social media is set up. this one concept of growing it by having you choose friends of friends to grow has polarized our society. so we have far more polarized societies and then we have no understanding of what the facts are. and then you attack institutions. and when you have someone like your leader and my leader, they become stronger in this environment. they hijack. and this is why democracy, him dying in our areas of influence. we need to protect the facts because if you don't have the facts, you can't have integrity of elections. you can't have integrity of markets. how can we have a working society if we don't have
a public sphere where we agree on what the facts me we've always had the devil and the angel on our shoulders, right. the way the social media platforms have been formulated. fans the devil in your ear. why is it that you're allowed to experiment on societies and when real people get killed? there are no actual consequences. it's like they invited people to their house and they gave everyone guns and said it's the wildlife. well, you know me, i'm, or where facebook's systems were being deliberately exploited to propagate, hey messaging contributions to you know, ethnic violence and ethnic cleansing. you came into this, you looked at the code,
you looked at the data and you later realized its impact on society and waiting for silicon valley to realize that as well. the oh, from the al jazeera london pro casenita to special guests in conversation. when you say a lie, a 1000000 times, it becomes a fact. you then can create whatever narrative you want on from dead uninterrupted . i realized i was working for something evil, you know, being a part of actually creating. maria meet christopher wiley. the death of journalism is only the 1st signal for the death of democracy studio b unscripted on al jazeera ah,
[000:00:00;00] with charged with crimes against humanity, $4000.00 counts of torture and $58.00 cases of murder, rape, and sexual violence. people in power trucks, the 1st ever war crimes trial over syrian high ranking officer. i am taking part of this trial because he did something bad to me and to others as fearful. i don't, i focus about jobs as part of that. he's in the trial of on one of the slim or to on i just gotta americans are increasingly saying authoritarianism might not be so bad. there were several steps along the way where the chain of command it's you like tried to cover what your take on why they've gotten this so wrong. that to me is political malpractice,
the bottom line on us politics and policies and the impact on the world on al jazeera, revealing eco friendly solutions to combat threats to our planet on al jazeera. ah, the thrusting fan is unprecedented. the secretary of state says, washington is committed to ukraine's territorial integrity warning russia kind of talk at very short notice. ah, sure. what channels is there a life from a headquarters in del heine, dirty and obligate. the also coming up fears of a water crisis and tongue out navy ships rushed to deliver supplies to the island,