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tv   [untitled]    November 13, 2021 5:30pm-6:00pm AST

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time to send up to their commitments and their pledges for the international community. the agreement also shows just how far relations between the u. s. and cutter have come, despite occasional differences, after nearly 50 years of diplomatic ties, the trumpet ministration back to the gcc blockade against dough hall imposed in june 2017. a diplomatic route only resolved in january. and analysts say cutter's new role representing the interests of the world's most powerful country in a contentious region, represents a payoff of years of diplomatic ambition. cutter has been in the game so to speak for quite some time when it comes to the situation with afghan or standing rest relations on. so i actually think that it's a very logical choice and it makes good sense from dos perspective. the deal between the us and cutter is limited and scope. it doesn't mean that they agree on
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how to engage the tall a bond as a political entity. and only experience will show whether having a proxy represent the u. s. is entertainment cobble will actually satisfy. it's long term national security goals. rosalyn jordan, l 0, the state department. ah, hello, are you watching out his ear and these are the top stories this hour, the sudanese it don't to committee says one person has been killed during protests in on demand city police offices in the capital cuts whom have used t gas to disperse crowds. they demonstrate is on demanding. i returned to civilian rule a taliban spikes. men says they have been several deaths after an explosion in the afghan capital. the blast reportedly targeted targeted rather a mini van in the mainly shia area of western cobble delegates of the you and climate conference in glasgow have reached
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a new draft agreement. it calls on rich nations to double the financial commitments by 2025, and it keeps going to phase out in efficient fossil fuel subsidies purchased. so being held in democratic republic of congo against the appointment of a new electoral commission head, it's being led by the catholic and protestant churches who have concerns about the independence of the decision. a young syrian man's body has been found in poland near the bellows. border polish police have not been able to determine the cause of death. it comes to thousands of refugees and migrants. is stuck at that florida. and donald trump, for my top aid, steve bannon has been charged with 2 criminal acts for disobeying a congress, congressional order banum was summoned to appear at a congressional hearing, investigating the january 6 attacked states. you know, there's a lot more to al jazeera than t v. with our website mobile app,
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social media and podcast, al jazeera digital is the world award winning online content. and each week on portal will bring you the very best of it. that trying to broaden the people to levy to go somewhere else. but the truth is that it got nowhere else to go. so if you missed it online, catch it here with me. sandra got men on al jazeera in less than a year. haiti has been rocked by a presidential assassination, rotating leaders and prime ministers, a devastating earthquake in hurricane, and now fuel shortages in daily kidnappings. $13000000000.00 in foreign aid has gone to the country over the past decade. but haley remains the poorest country in the western hemisphere. our agency is really helping haitian people, or have been made things worse. we'll take a closer look what 1st, rapid gang violence, government, corruption, and institutional decay are leading some to argue for more aggressive foreign intervention. is that really the right move in light of a violent colonial pass?
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and why did haiti's current leader arial on re fire the chief prosecutor who believed he had something to do with president marie's his assassination? earlier this year, i'll ask this weeks headliner, haitian foreign minister below joseph closures up. thank you so much for joining me on up front. thank you. of mike, it's an honor to be here with you. after haitian president of an invoice was assassinated in july of this past year, you served as acting president of from july 7 till about july 20th. the you and special representative for haiti, helen and leim said that you would remain president until the election would be held later that year. then the core group, investors to have from canada, germany, brazil, spain, the us, france, and the you caught for arial on read to form a government. what happened exactly after the tragic assassination of the president,
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the country needed someone. so remind them that we have to go through this tragedy to get and i was that person, no one else was risking the life. so work with the people to give them orientation. so i decided to do so because i was the prime minister. i was the, the acting, i should say, prime minister, but i should also say that dr. henry was a designated minister. so i decided to step down and see and the government as ministry for an offers elena, liam basset to un, and haiti said i would remain as minister on to the elections. but afterwards, because of the balls i come in, haiti,
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we all decided in our i decided to step down so there was no pressure. no, i was not forced. i a was a, i know that a doctor or yell of he was the last wish. oh, what is it more is before a he was assassinated? we know how to come together sometimes and just you know, put aside our own interest in a put hated for us in september. your countries then prosecutor requested the current prime minister ariel on re, to testify regarding his connection to the killers of the suspect, the killers of former president movies. but then on re fired him along with the justice minister who supported him. this appears to many, to be a case of obstruction of justice, isn't firing the chief prosecutor and the justice minister an example of obstruction. let me say declare, no one is above the law in haiti. it's certain that the justice system as it's the
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witness, but no one is above the law. what i can tell you is just just so i'm clear, the chief prosecutor and the justice minister were fired. we. that's an established fact. right? yes. by almost any legal standard that would be considered obstruction of justice. how do you see that act? is that objection? it depends on where someone stands. there are other people that actually say that there was an administrative fault. i mean, do you believe it? ah, well, what i do believe is that no one is above the law. i believe that if i am invaded by the judge, i should go, no one is above the law. so i, i truly firmly believe in the justice system in my country. optimistic in the capacity. why not? why are you optimistic?
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i mean there's an n g o transparency international which gave haiti a score of believe 18 out of 100 in terms of corruption. only 9 other countries in the world scored worse. what gives you optimism that the investigation will be transparent, that justice will be served given this, this context thus far. we have a report from the national police but a particular unit that is responsible for that and that investigation was conducted according to the principles. so that's exactly why i say the confident, but again, yes, i'm confident it remember that was the one as a minister for enough or is that actually we ques, a special commission in a special tribunal of from the u. n. to help the hate is
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just the system to actually investigate that. this crime 28 people who got to haiti and kill a president for and mercenaries 26 among them from columbia in to patient americans. so we need also international corporation to actually adjust this for them and find out who actually were behind the client. recently unary publicly addressed the gang violence and kidnapping that has been taking place in haiti. but this is only days after strike shut down, schools, businesses and public transportation. and puerto prince, he threatened actions against gangs up to imprisonment and even death. how. how seriously do you think that threat was, was taken? so he's who's because gangs,
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so be not the one who's making the low in a country. so it's very serious threat. it's not a threat. it's something that will be conquered child pretty soon. he would say that gangs don't run the country. and as a technical matter, of course, of course, that's true. but i'll give you an example of permanent gang leader jimmy barbecue sharika. he said that he would allow fuel to move safely into the country. if arielle honory retire resides, doesn't sound like he's too worried about the threats coming from the government and liz from many perspectives, it also looks like he has a level of control over the country that the government may not want to acknowledge, but is absolutely the case listen, ah, the situation and hate is complicated. we all know that. and this is why when i was a prime minister,
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decided to sit down because i think we need to put hate for us. and i'm asking not the gangs we not, we not going to negotiate with gangs. ah, what i'm asking. oh, political corpse. all groups from the service decided to, ah, but themself together to work for hate. because what this is in me is that they owe i'm. if occasions a political ramifications in what you are witnessing in terms of gangs. so with that, would you agree though that the gangs don't seem particularly concerned with the government threats? they are. i think they are concerned. they should be concerned if they are not, they should be concerned that there's a, there's a way that because the public announcement about the gangs only happens after the strike after public demonstration, there's a sense among many, including everyday ordinary haitian citizens that the government isn't particularly
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concerned about this that this is something that is only getting a response because people have stood up and protested and we, we of a concerned that's why you see the move when days of chicago in the haitian national police. so we, we have a new pulleys director now and no leadership of france, l. bay funds. so yes, of course, a shake of could be a good move with that would be determined by a who, the choices. but france, albert has been accused of being involved in police repression and human rights abuses for decades, as well as having connections to gang leaders. ah, elbow his godfather to the son of a powerful gang leader in haiti. according to the miami herald, ah, and his security forces have a long history of, of human rights abuses. if the argument is, we care about gangs, and we care about the violence and we care about corruption. and when you hire a new police head of the national police force, and it's such
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a controversial figure such as sketchy past, doesn't that only reinforce the fears that people have in the skepticism. people have desa desa entity. oh. within the national police that can investigate those allegations. i can not myself see too much about does leg is not for why even appoint someone, i mean any is filled with brilliant. talented, extraordinary people. extraordinary leaders, principal people, there's no doubt about that. so if you already have a low competence coming from the people and from the broader world, why a point someone with such a sketchy past, where i can tell you is that those are allegations. and so, i mean they, we have never seen any a decision from the justice system that actually come down him if he was condemn,
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he would that be a chief of or the director of the patient national police. so i take them for allegations i could acquisition, and that's accusations. i mean these are coming from human rights organizations. these are coming from everyday people on the ground. these aren't sort of random sort of accusations coming out here and his date back to the, to thousands is but i have yet to see justice decision against him. that's. that's that, that's a problem. let's pivot because earlier in the conversation you talked about needing international support, international help. and this isn't the 1st time that you said that you've called for international intervention in the country. in july. you said quote, we're asking for small troops to assist and help us. there's a long history of devastating intervention in haiti outside powers coming in and controlling the country. ah, knowing that why make the call for outside intervention? how do you justify?
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here's how i should justify it. i think we the, the, the national haitian national police should be supported technically. right? because we are, we, we need equipments, but we need also technical support the, the, the army also the patient army. it's clear to me crystal clear to me that we definitely need support now, but true. i mean, you do one on the ground. you don't want an active fighting force. it can. i mean, i'm not seeing fighting force, not boots on the ground to actually face the situation be if you call it was on the ground that was to help the military to help the police. so that's what i, i asked for the different types of intervention. haiti, unfortunately, no, some experience, i should say, some bad will be bad types of intervention. so i did not ask for that.
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i asked for technical support. i asked for equipments because we do not have certain things that can help us fight the gangs, the urbanized gangs that tried to take control of the whole commercial support training, not military forces, not a military force. of course closures have. thank you so much for joining me in the front. thank you. the haiti went from being the 1st independent black republic after a successful slave revolt to the poorest country in the western hemisphere, now flooded with international agencies. it is commonly referred to as a republic of n g o z and it has received billions of dollars in foreign assistance. but with issues of political instability, poverty and food insecurity. have agencies provided a pathway for development or have they created a culture of dependency?
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joining us to discuss this are a manual, a do yon. she's executive director of police to take a public policy think tank in haiti, and jake johnson, senior researcher at the center for economic and policy research, and the lead author for the organizations blog. haiti relief and reconstruction wash. thank you both for joining me on upfront and then i'll start with you over the last decade. $13000000000.00 have been poured into haiti. the country has hosted thousands of in deals and yet haiti remains the poor country in the western hemisphere. i have agencies fail haiti also that to some extent and agencies the industry failed to haiti because we have little to show for all the amount of money was spent in haiti. and if i consider what happened after the earthquake in 2010, this was a large appeal. but 10 years later, you still have people on the tent. usually we have very little, we cannot see,
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watch was exactly done. we have this money. and in some of the i think that they filled us. i had high expectation and everyone in haiti had a high expectant that we will, we build better. but at the end of the day, here we are, the situation, it was and it was before the j. you have also critique the international aid system . you've said that it benefit the donor countries. and it's the reason that haiti has been unable to build a kind of strong set of institutions internally. good equipment that an accident. this happens with me. yeah. i think, you know, you look at this and you look back to 2010 and what's happened after right. and of the initial billions of dollars spent on humanitarian assistance. 99 percent bypass the haitian government, local institutions, right. in terms of long term development a, it's a very similar story, slightly higher percent, but overall the money doesn't go to haitian organizations or to the haitian government or to build any local capacity whatsoever. right. and what it does do is
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it goes to a handful of firms largely closer to my office here in washington than anybody and porter prince. right. and that is not an accident, right? i mean, this is the 4 and 8 industry that we have built to prioritize supporting jobs in the united states and to support our industries, both in terms of direct employment, but also creating new markets for agricultural goods and things like this. those are the priorities that have dominated our interest in terms of creating this 4 and 8 industry manual un peacekeeping mission, which was in haiti until 2019, was responsible for introducing cholera into the country. killing thousands of people. peacekeepers were accused of sexual violence including rape against hundreds of people. and beyond this, the mission is often talked about is being more like an occupation. did un peacekeepers end up fueling hostility toward outside help. and definitely, and we fear to that un peacekeeping mission, every time i advocate against intervention tools like a peacekeeping mission in haiti because of all sorts, yes,
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because it doesn't work. we've had like, the meanest thought we call it for several years. and all i can remember is that when, why they were there, they did a few things you in there to help fight insecurity. but it was allowed amount of money spent to wait houses for them. and we know that the sexual abuse and a d n. the left and here we are, we have a game called them. we have like, nothing's every day, the police is the week as week as ever and again, we are asking like, what exactly did they do? and it's just a 31. 1 more example of how for an intervention, whether it's from the us or the countries do not work if they do not take into all called the weakness of the institution in haiti, and they do not walk in close life relationship. we do have to try to we infer them so that we don't that the pain on for an intervention. jake, what do you make of what a manual as says here?
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i mean, is it possible to learn from what has happened and have an outside intervention that does no harm and maybe even allows the the construction of a strong haitian infrastructure. yeah, i mean, i think what do we mean by intervention? i mean, i think when we talk about a military intervention or piece conversion, no, i mean that should be off the table and i think, you know, we've seen this, this lesson not just in haiti, right. but rather, there are other things happening right now that withdrawal from afghanistan, right. and similar to haiti, this is a failure of a foreign but nation building efforts. right. so it's easy to look at haiti and say, ok, this is a failed state. things are going really poorly, but we never look in the mirror and look at what our role has been in, in precipitating that crisis. right? this is the un mission that was not just there for security, but also to drastically reshape the political and economic life of a country. and that's not the role of outsiders to do. right. so can the international committee provide meaningful support to haiti in solidarity with haley to support haitian lead efforts to actually lead their own development? maybe that's possible, but that's gonna take some serious soul searching from the international community
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to drastically change the way they approach these issues. a manual it you've said a bit. haiti still needs additional foreign aid, but that the age should be conditioned on, ah, quote, cleaning up and reform in the countries institutions. so effectively, that is a kind of attempt to influence internal powers. the are internal leadership. how do you strike their balance between saying, we don't wanna over determine what happens inside the country. but saying that we have to condition aid on basic human rights, basic law and order, et cetera, is, is, is it possible to strike a balance even? i think it's possible to have a barn as because it cannot be in all or not to like thinking in this case because we still need maybe founding in haiti to finance our development because we do lack resources. but the main problem with previous intervention we've had is that there is a large gap between the mod sears, the incentive and need of the haitian people. so we definitely need to have people
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want to help follow what the people want. and it's very important when i say the people, because what the people, what is that necessarily what the official is, what we those in a state like haiti, the government is sometimes what you're for the on interest and unit all question. whether you're financing the government project or the something that the people will be, what something that's really good for the country. because as this happened in or the country is autocrat or like co officer with use for an end till we meet in power, a manual or the president of a charity watch says that non profit in haiti exists in quote, a black hole of accountability, but which has allowed it to get away with a court, a lot of waste and abuse, or how is it that there are no mechanisms to hold ineos foreign injuries accountable for their actions? there are like many reasons why they do not hold and use accountable the employ,
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a lot of people to begin with. if you walk out and you, you have a really good job in haiti. so even people in the state, people working for a government, some of them work has consulted for n g was therefore they do not have an incentive to to impose like street the regulation or to control what the in deals are doing. and i know kids is of course, and we are local official, we ask you to hire people for them. so they can, they can implement a project in the community, the main goal, and they see the angels as a source of like webinar. and therefore, they are like, okay, we'll let you be and you, we benefit from the money. so it's really complicated in our many areas. and why did you know i add to that too? right. i mean, agencies, whether it's, you know, bilateral organizations or, and jose and who are they accountable to, right. they are accountable to the haitian people might be where they're working,
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but they're accountable to their donors. whether it's, you know, private funders, usa id, the, et cetera. i mean, the key metric is it, did you spend the money, right. it's not about how effective you actually did that. and we've seen this time . and again, i mean, you know, so much money goes to outside actors because of this fear of corruption in haiti. certainly manually, the 1st to tell you, yes, there is corruption in haiti, but there's also corruption everywhere else. right. and there's corruption here we've, we've institutionalized, a fair amount of it. we've legalized plenty of it. but when you go and you have a big n g o working in haiti and they're buying brand new cars, renting out the houses and bedroom bill, that looks like corruption to right. i mean, and so until we actually are holding until they're there, funders are holding them accountable. right. it's a little, you know, it's a little rich to be saying, why is in haiti holding these actors accountable. we don't hold them accountable. you've said before that haiti is not a failed state. you say it's an aide, see. and that agencies have, as we've talked about, an extraordinary amount of influence over the political process. can you talk about
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that distinction making between a failed state and an 8 states provocative one? yeah, i mean, i think, you know, what we're talking about here are looking more root causes and why things are the way they are. right. and so it, putting haiti into a category is a failed state. i think for most people, you know, the message is that haiti has failed. right. and i think what we're looking at again, like i was talking about earlier, is this is a failure of foreign nation building, right? and we're not just talking about foreign assistance, but for an intervention more broadly, right? could cause overthrowing governments overturning election results. and so then to turn around and say, well hating political situation is, you know, unstable and untenable that well, why did that exist? right? and we have to the push button courses that by for me as an aide state, it suggests that the outside agencies are exclusively responsible for hades condition. and that there's no room to talk about internal corruption, internal lack of accountability, lack of transparency in various processes, whether the electric process or whether it's, you know, other, other extensively democratic processes. yeah. well look, i mean, i think, you know,
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obviously there's plenty of conversation inside haiti around what needs to be reform inside haiti. right. for me as an external observer and somebody focusing on the role of external actors in haiti. right. we can't shift that burden and say, all of the blame lies on haiti when we've played a role in precipitating us, right. and so for those outside actors that are now looking to come up with a new plan of how to intervene or how to do things better, where you're gonna have to look in the mirror 1st before you can do that, right? and so until we can accept that responsibility to whatever extent it does exist, right, you're never going to produce something different. you're never going to be able to adapt from that and create something more sustainable. so, you know, again, it's about changing that frame and looking in the mirror 1st before we point our fingers at hayden. manual it, do you see a time where haiti will no longer be in need of 8? i do, but it will be difficult because if it's an and the industry in haiti, ed and it's really working. so we will have
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a lot to do to force people to understand that you cannot be finding. let's see, callaway in haiti for 25 years doing the same thing and stay in business. at some point, we will need to move from end to order form of partnership, and it can have been, i'm positive, i think it will have been, but it will be hard, but we'll continue to keep watch of it. thank you both for joining me. jake manuel . as well, thank you for having absolutely everyone that is our show of right. we'll be back next week. ah mother nature's cold full landscapes. strong infrastructure governance arising were investments are waiting to flourish.
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