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tv   [untitled]    October 11, 2021 8:30pm-9:01pm AST

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and more barriers to getting and the health support. there are warnings to day that a solar flare hitting earth could disrupt power grids and satellites. the flare, like the one in this animation, was 1st observed on saturday. it causes was described as a g. u. magnetic storm, it could also mean the northern lights are seen in the skies as far south as new york. ah, welcome. if just joining us, it's exactly half past the hour. this is al jazeera, these are your top stories, the you and chief says the world needs to find a way of getting money and assistance into afghanistan now. and tony quoterush says, 8 agencies are doing their best, but wouldn't be able to cope if the economy collapses. humanitarian assistance saves lives. but if you lot solve the problem if the economy of afghanistan collapses, we also need to make sure we do everything we can to prevent the economic collapse
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of the country. already before the taliban takeover in august afghanistan's fragile economy, which has been kept afloat by foreign aid over the past 20 years, suffered from the impact of that out and coughing. right now with s it's frozen and development aids forced, the economy is breaking down. banks are closing and the central services such as l scared and been suspended in many places. well, just ahead of that, afghanistan is acting foreign minister called the international community to work with the taliban government. he was speaking in doha and also said the taliban is hoping for positive results from a recent meeting with a us delegation. should as he is president kay said has approved a new government nearly 3 months after he fired the last one. the prime minister nigerla boulden, who was appointed by said last month said the administration's main priority will
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be to tackle corruption initial action results in iraq point to a strong results for the shia cleric mug to the al satyrs party. the election commission revealed the partial figures earlier and also confirmed a low turn out of just over 40 percent in ethiopia, the to grey people's liberation front says government troops of launch coordinated attacks on all fronts, the rebel se heavy artillery tanks, fighter jets and drones are being used against them offensive was launched last week, but appears to be intensified. there's been no immediate comment from the government . the assassination trial of thomas ankara, a revolutionary who lead burkina faso in the 1980s has been suspended for 2 weeks. he was murdered in 1987, but the trial began on monday, the former leader blaze comp uri who replaced sanker as president is facing charge is along with 13 other people. those are your headlines. the news continues here on out to 0 after inside story. after that,
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we got the news are for you will see either ah a huge show of support for the european union, thousands of people rally in poland after top court there rejected one of the use founding legal principles. could poland follow the u. k. and leave the block, and how should you leaders respond? this is inside story. ah. hello, welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan. one of the european union's core principles
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is the supremacy of its laws. that means that regulations decided in brussels are applied equally across it's 27, been the states and override national legislation. poland is challenging. the idea it's top court has all the parts of each law and not compatible with the polish constitution. the government in warsaw has welcomed the decision, but e. u leaders are threatening to retaliate on sunday. hundreds of thousands of polish protest as urged their government to commit to keeping poland in the block will bring in our guests in just a moment. but 1st, a report from others here as warri challenz in basel up enough nice large crowds and e, u flags, plenty, and central war. so, and real fears for the country's future we were back to stay in the european union . and we are very afraid that, that we are going to, to the pull exit together with the government of mister kaczynski and the others
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here. it's like, you know, a magician who is playing a young magician who is playing, who is fire and he doesn't know how to know how to stop so it can explode. so i think he's the same here. they don't really know what they did since the constitutional tribunal ruled on thursday. that foundational parts of new law don't apply in poland, opposition, politicians and e. you supporters of been mobilizing the turn out here reinforces a central points support for the european union in poland. is overwhelming, some 75 to 80 percent of the population, not even the ruling. lauren justice party. really questions ponens membership of the european union. so begs the question, why is the government picking such a potentially dangerous fight with brussels? we did invite poland government and supporters in the media to explain their position,
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but none took the opportunity. so i put the question to adam bordner until being ousted by the same tribunal that ruled against the e. u. he was poland, human rights ombudsman. it seems to me that government would simply like to accept, okay, we can take the money, we can take all those benefits, but please leave us alone when it comes to end, the pressure concerning the compliance with and the european ur standards, but it is impossible simply because you cannot be at the same time member of the european union and ignore or basic rules of european integration. the e u is thinking about its response. it neither wants to let this slide nor worse than the dispute. we will react, of course, like we're like we have done in the last weeks and most you have seen that again, we already know false new decisions of the court of justice about as efficient in colon also possible, a daily financial sanction. the constitution now joins issues like judicial reform,
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abortion, and l g b t writes connected fronts in a power struggle between poland, government and the e. u. that's getting worse, not better, rory, talents, how to 0, also or other e u. member states are resisting some of the blocks so called shared values. hungary has backed poland, controversial court ruling prime minister. victor, all ban has been at odds with the e. u. about judicial independence. the european commission is worried about political interference and the legal system of some of its members states. it's also concerned about attacks on journalists and hostility towards activists defending women's and l g b t q writes 11 member states, including austria and ireland, say the e, you should respect the authority to set their own policies on education, child care, and labor laws. ah, so let's bring in our guests for today's discussion from warsaw,
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we're joined by me. how vacovich a lawyer and co founder of the hash tag free courts initiative for dresden, rick brooklyn, up political analyst and professor of political science at stanford university in berlin. and from brussels, peter club up a lawyer at editor of brussels report. you gentlemen, welcome to you will let me how to start with you is poland heading for the use exit door. are we looking at poll exit here? that is very serious concern because that is the consequence of the battle that we have for last 6 years. when the unlawfully kept church constitutional court issues. the verdict saying that exactly polish it government and the polish government do not have to accept, do not have to execute the no rulings of the european court of justice. and
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that is the, and that is the issue because polish government do not have, do not want to have the control from the european union institutions when it comes to the independence of judiciary, polish government and polish parliament. throughout the last 60, it changed completely. the system of judiciary in poland and her from this systemic point of view. it is captured by the government. it is not independent any more. and that's why brussels and that's why luxemburg and the european court of justice is trying to force preserve ends of the european law in poland. and that is the essence of the conflict over cuz we had a few minutes ago in the report. the you says it will react to the courts pronouncement at, but how is this going to be resolved? is it possible that you could say to poland? either you change or constitutional, you simply can't remain a member state. well,
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in my understanding, poland has already left the legal community. it's not a matter of is it happening one day? under certain conditions, you consist of different legal communities. it's an economic community, community off principles and cultural values. it's a political community, and most importantly, it's a legal one. and if a country claims that it's no longer legally committed to the obligations and it only wants to use the privilege of santa rights, it has practically said good bye to the legal community. the problem with you is that it's not a state. we cannot send the cavalry, and the torture instruments are rather limited because the ones that will be tortured are the ones who have collectively to decide about the use of the torch instruments. and you will always find someone who fears that if i do this now, and if i stick to the rules of the community,
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i will be next. and that is why all on from hungary and most likely also of india is backing the position of the polish government. it's been described as unprecedented. a massive escalation of the crisis of the rule of law in poland. what are the implications of this if poland doesn't voluntarily withdraw from the union? what are the chances of it being frozen out legally, from within? well, legally, it's not possible to exclude the member states for the european commission can initiate and under infringement procedure discipline ultimately culminate in a fine if paul does not pay the find and the commission can sort of take the money from the transfers. that's the polish state receives from the, the european union. there's also the so called article 7 procedure,
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which in theory allows member states to, to, to vote. so poland no longer has voting rights. and this is all of course political. ready science fiction, i think in practice the priority will be to try to find a political solution. and i understand that that's what many beliefs is behind all this. many belief, like the polish guess, says that the pull is constitutional court is actually instructed by the polish government. and that this is all a ploy for the polish governments to, to increase its it's leverage. now if you look at, of course, the history and then if you look at other member states, you can see that the policy constitutional court in 2005 has already issued a ruling where it declares the fullest constitution to be superior to you. law. now, this time around, it's all a lot more aggressive. you may say,
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if you look at the jurisprudence of the german constitutional courts since the 1970 s really with this so longer rulings, it has said that the german constitution is ultimately superior to you. law in a test repeated this stance. however, tolerating so the fact that you law is barrier. now, the problem is that the treaty does not contain any content on this. this is all based on a jurisprudence of the top you core to top you court and declares that your law is superior. and so far this has been sort of tolerated defacto. busy by your member states. and of course at one point when you have the top court of the member states and the government openly challenging this, then then you have
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a problem. me how it picking up on on what peter was saying that about this being perhaps of a ploy. how legitimate is poland constitutional court are we talking about independent judges here or government appointed ones? and what does this mean for regular polish judges? and we will consequences to they face if they now implement you law over polish law and vice versa. doesn't put them in something of an impossible position. well, it was one common to it, sir. my colleague from brussels said actually there is no conflict between the standard that is described in polish constitution and the standard which is described in the you law in treaties and the charter, the same standard of independence of judiciary. so there is no conflict. this is only potential political conflict rising by, by our government, but coming back to your question, regarding this legitimacy of this constitutional court,
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this constitutional court is and lawfully, are composed there. there are 3 illegal judges sitting in the panel of the constitutional court. it is, it was already confirmed by the european court of human rights in july, in excess of flora case. the european court of human rights directly said that these constitutional court with these 3 illegal judges is not the court in the meaning of european standards. so what will be the consequence of this verdict? i suppose that polish chords, especially this supreme court, will ignore these very addict and polish judges, and polish court will follow the judgments of the european court of justice. okay. is that going to get them into any potential legal problems there in,
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in potent that, that is obvious. we have incredible legal cows in a polish system. and of course such a very big produces and other conflicts and, and other problems. but at the end of the day, i believe that the polish courts and polish judges which are really brave and 3 independent. and they do not afraid consequences, even if they are really toughly repressed by the government with the disciplinary proceedings with the criminal proceedings. with other former for oppression, and we have more than 150 proceedings against polish judges repressions. i mean repressions against bullies, judges, then it's a serious problem. but even though posed judges are brave enough to issue independence. very next. and as i said at the end of the day,
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i believe that that verdict of the constitutional court will be ignored by polish courts and polish guard bullies. judges will follow the european law. busy and the standards described by the european court of justice photographs we sent a few moments ago. this has been described as unprecedented. but, but is it germany is constitutional court challenge the ears, legal order. when judges found that the european central bank overstepped its mandate. so why is poland being criticized in a way that germany wasn't at all double standards of play here? it's not double standards because these are 2 different standards. but the supreme court in germany did was to do what supreme court do with a look at their constitution and see if what the executive is doing is backed by the constitution. so the supreme court in germany warned the government that if we transformed germany into something like a liability union or united states of europe,
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forum that is not backed by the constitution, we have to adapt the constitution. so this is by no means a way to say good bye to the european union and germany class, it's independence. it is just to look into what does the quote, because it's in germany say, what the polish churches are asked to do politically by the government is to support their confrontational course. to create a situation which is very different from wars trading about money. you cannot apply a little bit of the rule of law. it's like pregnancy, either you are pregnant or you're not. if the polish government would apply for membership as a candidate with such a position, it would never ever become a member. now that the, i mean, i'm not really sure what my colleague from also say before that the nuclear option is purely political science fiction. if the confrontational course will be as
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confrontational as it sounds right now, this is the last option. has the commission gradually overstepped its its remit? shouldn't sovereignty and differing national priorities be taken into account by by the commission? well, yes, sentimentally, i think there is a problem of the european union overstepping its powers. but here i would not so much blame the commission. i mean, they are to blame, but ultimately the european core of justice, which has been permitting this, this power overreach for years. i mean a former german president role one head. so it has been warning for this. many other people and the question is more, how do you solve it? because of course, european court of justice as well we, we respect the competencies. and i believe that and an interesting creative way to solve it would be to subject the european court of justice to what i would call
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a subsidy or the court basically, yet another court, an intro governmental court that would have very few cases. but that. busy basically would be responsible to, to sort out disputes on distribution of competence. so whenever a government things over the u. s. overstepping its power here and the european court of justice is permitting this then only on this cases this new court will be able to overrule. so i think that would make it, let's say a lot more than likely that you would not have this kind of differences in opinion. and it's probably true that the poor government is sort of exploiting this long, lingering constitutional law problem to basically implement it's traditional reforms. that i indeed agree that you could raise
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a lot of question marks, especially if you see sort of situation with the government. so in such a broil with judges, that's a. ringback very unhealthy situation and, and, and we see similar tendencies all across central and eastern europe. sadly, me how, what's your, your response to that, what, why is the polish government picking such a potentially dangerous fight with you, or are the e treaties as they exist simply unworkable across such a politically diverse block of countries? is it the you that's out of state with, with member states and not the individual nations? you know, 1st of all, my answer is the polish situation regarding the violation of independence of judiciary is black and white is absolutely obvious. so all the verdicts already should by european court of justice and the european court of human rights are saying clearly that polish government violates european law and violates
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this at fundamental standards. one of them is independence of judiciary is a protection of the rule of law. so it is not the discussion between lawyers, it is not the conflict between lawyer stephen. this is an obvious situation. this is a conflict between law in violation of law. so what i was the participant, as the representative for the judge is even supreme court judges in these proceedings in the european court of human, in the european a court in luxembourg. and i could see what was presented by polish government. what was presented by european commission and other countries which participate in these proceedings. and as i said, these conflict, this situation is black and white. and we are,
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as the democrats protecting european, valid on the, on the white position. and the government is, is violating obviously the rule of law. you wouldn't imagine what is happening in poland every day with judges who are trying to implement directly european law, which are trying to ask the questions for preliminary rolling to the european court of justice. they are simply repressed, orrick, it, it's black and white. me how says hunger is prime minister victor all been signed the declaration welcoming the polish court's ruling and said that the, i quote the i am received at the privacy of each law should only apply in areas where the e u has competence and the framework for this is laid down in the e use founding treaties. constitutional courts and tribunals have every right to examine the scope and limits of new competences. he has a point, does me? this is perfectly right and that's the very nature of the european union. on the
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one hand, the member states remain the masters of the process and they decide what competence is our european eyes, to what extent and this is written in that has been treaty at the moment. it has to be had the same with a founding treatise and all the following treaties. that's the one side of the story. the other side of the story is the moment european eyes law. this law supersedes over national law or any law. it doesn't matter if it's written in the constitution or if it's a convention or an unwritten law, this is the only way to create a legal space in which law is equal to everyone. so no one questions this. and i also don't think that it's the core of the problem that it's a judicial one. the core of the problem is a political one, because kuchinski and the routing party in poland, and on with his ruling party, simply dream of a different political system,
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which is not in line with what the european union defines as a requirement for membership in the european union, this is the condition of course, and not the question of if national churches agree with what has been ruled in luxembourg and so on. peter, a recent european commission dossier on respect for rule of law across the block express concerns about several countries. we're not talking just about poland and hungary here, democratic backsliding, as it's been called. what has changed politically since member states side up to the treaties. how dangerous is it for that for the you and what can the commission do about it? well, i think for a fact that there are problems with the rule of law in several member states, probably in every member stay at the end of the day. but definitely in a probably a very problematic way in certain member states. and i would there to single out of
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the new members state that entered in 2004. the reasons for that, that's pro perhaps another debate. i don't think we should glorify how the situation was right after the fall of communism. in some cases, like in romania, the transition was not all that transition is you can see the secret service are continuing to play a role. there are, for example, a similar problems in bulgaria. the situation was much better in poland and hungary . now a 2nd question is, what can you, what can other member states do about all that? i think it's very, very hard to easily end up in, in debates with double standard say people will say, well, why are you going after florence. busy for an officer, how spanish treating catalonia, for example, and maybe to some of my points, i think they should at least not send massive sums of money. oligarchs. that's
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sorry, peter, we, we're almost out of time. i just want to be have one very quick question. you can about 30 seconds, be how, how dangerous is this for, for poland government with you support writing so high? is there a danger that people just met might get so fed up with the vote them out? well, it is a dangerous situation for poland, control, polish government because i as far as i can see, european institution are consequence, a consequence. and the european commission, i decided to stop this crisis because it is not only our internal polish issue. it is that it is the problem of the whole europe. if you do not stop this crisis of rule of law, you fallen it can be a domino effect for the whole europe. the, i'm afraid gentlemen will have to leave it. we're out of time. many thanks. indeed, we have ever kabbage already broken up. and peter clapper, thank you to for watching. don't forget, you can see the program again at any time just by going to the website at al
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jazeera dot com for further discussion. join us at our facebook page. you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. and you can join the conversational twitter. i'll handle at ha, inside story from me, adrian finnegan and whole team here in doha. thanks for being with us. will see you again. ah ah. ah .
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