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tv   The Bottom Line  Al Jazeera  May 29, 2021 2:30pm-3:01pm +03

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so without my permission, a group called justice for greenwood has organized its own commemorative events like this march with the survivors. they had long argued that the official ceremonies were being overseen by the direct descendants of those who burned down black wall street in the 1st place. but i was fighting for justice for greenwood. this member ration has vividly demonstrated just how little has changed in the 100 years and say white mom, back supplies to the authorities, looted its black population. she ever times the al jazeera, tulsa oklahoma. ah, this is out. these are the top stories, and molly's constitutional code is named the colonel who led a military coup this week. as the interim president, colonel, see me going to has promised to hold elections as planned early next year. in democratic republic of congo, tens of thousands of people are seeking shelter from
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a possible 2nd volcanic eruption last week. going girl ever up to killing dozens and destroying homes, malcolm webb is near the russian side. in game this is devastating for people in game or it's not an easy place to get by it. certainly a lot of money moving around here. it's a nexus of the mineral trade for the region and not draw a lot of people to the city. but there were very few formal jobs and there were very few public service is very little support from the government. it's very much a hand to mouth. existence of people is homes, education certificate ideas, their possession savings, whatever they may have had in their house for those that their property destroyed under this river of lava is very devastating. indeed. the remains of $215.00 children have been found at the site of a former school for indigenous peoples in western canada. at least 850000 children attended so called residential schools until the 900 ninety's many were forced to be taken from their parents. is there any politicians appeared to have reached the
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deal that could end the month long a political deadlock and potentially see the end? the benjamin netanyahu long stand to prime minister. it would see right wing leader natalie bennett, serve as prime minister until 2023. before his center left coalition partner would take over years, president joe biden has unveiled his 1st major budget's increasing federal spending to 6 trillion dollars. the plan aims to provide billions for roads and bridges education and combating climate change. the white house, as it will impose sanctions on bella, luce and is working on a list of targets within the belushi and government. it comes off to minutes to diverted a passenger place and forced to land in order to arrest visit in germany. the u. s . is also suspending an agreement align valerie suggests to fly an american as oh right. you're up to date with the headlines. bottom line is coming right up me
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hi steve clements and i have a question with the intense fighting pause and hopefully over. is there any hope for real peace between the palestinians and israelis? let's get to the bottom line ah, about 30 years ago and norwegian power a couple had a crazy notion of basically deciding on their own to bring together palestinian and israeli officials to make a peace deal. in our slow, there were slow formal negotiations already going on, but they decided to do their own thing, and they actually pulled it off back then talking face to face was not only blasphemous, it was illegal, and america was against it. so everything was done in secret, and despite them mistrust, the frustration and the walk out in the end,
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the historic also records were signed in 1993, with much fanfare at the time. many people around the world bought that the deal would lead to a sustainable piece after decades of conflict. but as we saw earlier this month, the 2 sides are nowhere near an end of the violence and heartbreak of so many killed and living in fear. and the offload deal, which was supposed to be a temporary fix leading to a permanent deal has expired. today we're looking at that deal from 2 angles. one is the last thing impact of os low on the palestinians, and israelis for good and not so good. and the other is the high drama of the secret talks themselves, and the personal stories of the characters involved were joined by bartlett sheer, one of america's most prolific theater. in oper directors, he's the director of the new movie called off slow, which started as a play in new york written by j t rogers a few years ago. it's based on the true story of palestinian is really negotiations in the norwegian capital. and it comes out this week and the on a boot to
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a palestinian lawyer who served as legal advisor to the palestinian negotiating team back where there used to be negotiations with israel based on the aso accords . and finally, daniel levy, a former advisor negotiator for the israeli government, who is the lead, is really author of the geneva accord, which was supposed to start where the also chords ended. he's now president of the us middle east project. it's a real honor and privilege to have all of you on board, but let me start with the movie that's coming out marlott. this conflict has been raging for decades, and i don't know about your, your, you know, timing and other things. but you've got the story of also how it came together coming out right now amidst real horror intention. yet again in israel palestine. what drew you to this story and what drew you to sort of telling it now? well i actually, i live in new york and i happen to be friends with my. my daughter, best friend in 2nd grade was the daughter of tyra larson and motor fuel. and so i would go and fit it. soccer matches near to people the stars and then we have the 2
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people in the movie. i would go and sit at soccer, matches and hear stories, a middle east peace. and from my point of view, it was extraordinary theater in a way and introduced tire to j. t rogers, who wrote the play and the film. and away we went, you know, i don't know if a lot of people know, i mean general lay people know of us. so. but when you, when you perform this in new york in tel aviv and you know, other places london, how was it received? is it received this? wow, that was a historic anomaly, but it's really a disappointment because they didn't move forward. well we, we didn't. we didn't one way or another as if we were trying to make a point about offline working or not working. we are telling a history story, a history play, as you would find in shakespeare. and we're trying to tell the story what happens when complete enemies can come into a room and trying to resolve their conflicts. and that was the basis. so when we 1st, when it 1st came out in 2016,
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most of the audiences were learning about that. but they were talking about democrats and republicans. and when we did it in london, they all, they talked about what it was more about how to, how, what the larger question is of how to get hugely opposing and hateful forces into a room. and is it possible for them to resolve their differences? let me go to deanna and to daniel and ask them they these 2 great individuals negotiated for their governments in the wake of os. hello deanna. let me just ask you, what did did, did i flow which was supposed to be the low bar, not the high bar? was it worth the effort back then? or did it set up false hopes? me? how do you look at oslo with regard to where we are today in the role that people like you and daniel tried to move forward, but, but ultimately we haven't moved that far forward toward house demands. the issue of
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oslo is not a documentary film. it's actually a horror movie. and the reason that it's a horror movie is because this wasn't just a question of setting a bar, but it has actually changed the course of history for palestinians to the negative . what it meant was that it wasn't just a question of people coming into a room and sitting down and resolving differences as bartlett had said, but ignored and mass. the fact that palestinians have been living under a very brutal military occupation and have been denied their freedom. and so the whole formulation of all flo recreated history or spawn history on its head and spawn law and its head such that palestinians are now 4th to negotiate with their oppressor, with their occupier. rather than getting the world to put pressure on israel to end that military occupation and the lasting effects of that are we still feel to, to today everything from the dividing up of the land into various areas to the
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establishment of the palestinian authority that isn't its own independent government to the continued settlement expansion that we see to this very day to the settler take over that we are even experiencing now 27 years later to the fact that we have a palestinian authority that is had in effect served as israel security sub contractor, these are the last thing effect for palestinians of the, of the low courts. it's not, they didn't produce anything positive. it actually produce way to produce everything negative. thank you for that, daniel. i love to get your take because you had you negotiated. you wrote the deal that was supposed to come after our slow and we saw the political rug in israel primarily be ripped, right from beneath it. as, as politics in israel moved in a very different direction. i'm just interested not only in how you see that before, but as you look forward and just listening beyond and basically saying, hey,
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this is a horror story, not a documentary. how do you see, what are the pieces are that can be moved around then you think could maybe move us into, you know, somewhat a better direction. yes, thanks steve. i mean, i think that pulling of the rug was partly for the very reasons deanna just outline for us and whatever the intentionality is, all the players at the time the that i imagine the movie goes into. in retrospect, what dana is described for us is the lived reality of palestinians. and unfortunately, the flip side of that only israeli side was also kind of sent the signal. you could get peace on the cheek. you could get this without really engaging with di occupation with palestinian
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writes, with international law. so where are you the challenge today is to on learn also. it's not about reviving or slow. it's how do we definitively draw a line under that? and it's important to remember the all slow was supposed to lead to a 5 year period. there was a 5 year time horizon by which all the final status issues as we call all the things jerusalem settlements borders, statehood refugees, crucially had to be result that coming up to 30 years ago. if anything has passed its expiry date by a quarter of a century, it probably stinks to high heaven. and that's the reality of all slow today. unfortunately, when you, when you made this. so one of the things that really struck me were that you, you brought in real palestinian actors and performers,
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real israeli actors and performers. you could sit a see and feel the tension between them as they negotiated this, as they were living, you know, essentially what, what, what dana and daniel were just talking about as they saw all of us. but i guess the other element that really intrigued me about the film was that it was just such a weird side show that everybody needed in that moment. and i'm wondering, and i, and i sort of say, you know, the waffles and the, you know, breakdown and because everybody needed something to happen in that moment. i just isn't your insight about this. as you look at the conflict today, do you think there's any prospect of another story out there? maybe i know it's not your your field, but wondering whether side shots like this are possible amidst real horror. my sense of what offers in the story were telling is that it was meant to be the beginning of a process which was thwarted almost as soon as it started. so the larger idea of
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getting people into a room to talk is good. but there are 2 things about also one is the, the principle of getting people in the room to make changes is incredibly valid. no matter how you look at it. but the real differences, great leadership, are there people among the leadership who are willing to make the kinds of sacrifices that are necessary for real peace? and without that ingredient, as well as the also the idea of off low. there's no, there's that it's not going to work. so that's where it's not just one side of the other. and we don't try to argue that in the film. it's, it's, there's a huge, huge human rights issue and huge question that has to be addressed right now. and we're only telling a history story, we're not pretending to say something specific about now, except that there was a least a glimmer of an effort to make a change. well, let me, let me ask you one of the people in that film that intrigued me. the characters that was being played with yoshi bailing and israeli politician who kind of kept this secret from his boss for quite
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a while. daniel levy daniels here. daniel worked at the right hand of us. he bail. and daniel, are there any yo see valence brewing in the israeli political system today? deanna, are there any palestinian leaders and we haven't had elections for, you know, over a decade mahmoud abbas just to lay the elections again. are there, are there any stars rising that would that would give us an opportunity. say well, we've got a chance for reset because they're different people. but daniel, are there any yoshi balance? well, of course individuals and leadership matters. they're all know you'll see billions is the short answer, but the longer all series, those things also tend to be contingent under circumstances of 0 accountability for israel and maximum. impunity for israel circumstances guaranteed, unfortunately by american policy international policy in particular,
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american policy. under those circumstances, you'll see balance. others are unlikely to emerge. and the crucial thing here is, remember that those folks coming to a root and i think that the palestinian side did not necessarily represent what it was supposed to represent or place hand strongly. and the israeli side could have been more forward leaning more courageous. but crucially, they come into a room against the backdrop of a power relationship. and if we don't understand this, in the context of an occupying power and an occupied people, and if we haven't addressed that, a symmetry where no flow happened, the bushes administration, but just on something very unusual. these are the israel and loan guarantees. the gulf war adjust sent signals to israel. and most crucially,
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the palestinians had been through the 1st intifada, which piano can speak to much more than i in a way the piano stole some of the clothes about into the body. but crucial here is, does the powerful party have a reason? an incentive structure to drive towards compromise them right now israel does not have unfortunately because of the impunity and indulgence it is accorded in john. i'd love to hear what you think is brewing in the palestinian political system. but listening to daniel, it seems to me that that is the rationale then on the palestinian side for violence to basically create cos that become hard for israel to, to, to accept and of force action. am i, am i wrong? but when it comes to again, on this issue of leadership, we have to understand that this is a one way occupation. it's not, i'm not occupying televi by not occupying israel. it's the israelis who are
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occupying palestinian territory. and that's why it's so imperative to stop getting out of this mindset that somehow there needs to be 2 equal parties or that there are 2 parties. it's one party, it's one party that's doing the, occupying another party that's on the receiving end of that occupation. and, and so if we're talking about lack of leadership, the lack of leadership comes from the fact that there is no israeli leader that is willing to end its military rule. and there is no international leader that's willing to force israel and military rule. and so when you have this situation and you have an framework in which house indians are left defenseless, left with it, with israel taking over their, their land, taking over their lives. of course, people are going to go out and defend themselves. and this is why it's so important for us to really make sure that we understand this context. this isn't about getting 2 people into a room and shaking hands and then throwing away old old,
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old anger, et cetera. this is about an ongoing military occupation. the denial of freedom and it's a one way occupation that israel could easily undo if it took a decision, a political decision to do that. but it's never taken that political decision. and sadly, the international community has never taken that decision either. it's abdicated it's responsibility. and somehow turn this into a, both sides is them. there aren't 2 side, there's one side. i want to come back to barton a moment. but what you just said is that there's a, you know, a lot of negligence and dereliction internationally. let me just ask you about the by the administration has come in succeeded the trump administration succeeded jared, questioners work on the abraham accords and others. and you know, daniel levy and i have known each other for decades. and i've always wondered when the moment would occur when israel, when israel palestine issues were less of a, of strategic consequence to america, they may be of moral consequence. but when you see other arab states,
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now normalizing with israel, with this problem not solved, deanna. does that mean that this is going to essentially be, you know, a permanent ulcer that gets unresolved? no, i don't think so, but we've seen that with the trumpet ministration. they tried to do we palestine under the rug. they tried to do away with it. they made sure that arab governments ended up normalizing with israel. but let's be clear, these are our governments. these are not the air people. and we still see around the world as we saw with, with the recent bombing campaign that israel carried out against, against the gaza strip. and, and by the way, in the shootings that were happening in the lock, some off that we saw that there are millions of supporters around the world's pushing for palestinian to be free and pushing for palestinian liberation. so they may try to think that they can sweep it under the rug, but of course this simply continues to raise its head. i think that what we're
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beginning to witness is as the, in the worth of one, my friends were beginning to see the cracks in the wall were beginning to those cracks, travel up the wall. and it's, i think, just a question of time before we see that international public opinion and the shifting policy. daniel, what you and i part about facts on the ground for years. in fact, on the ground to day are there is a raging conflict. i thought i talked to senator chris murphy just the other day and, you know, he admitted that our tools in our leverage in this conflict are, are thinning and getting smaller, not larger. how do you see the facts on the ground? what can be moved? well, i somewhat dispute the idea that american leverage is spinning. i think american willingness to use its leverage remains as limited as it ever was. i think you spoke about the strategic significance to the us. i think in that respect things may well have shifted. i think the strategic significance today is much more
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difficulty for abiding administration. seeking to say, hey, america is back and america is back me. we stand up for international law values, human rights. and yet, this is how we treat the palestinian situation. this is how we treat israel, denial of palestinian right? i think that's a very bad look. and then there's an internal domestic political moving the conversation something the shifting especially inside the democrat party. what i want to make clear is you asked about normalization. and here i think something important happened under trump, which has changed much, hasn't changed. trump took the normal playbook, which wasn't working. and he said,
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i'm actually going to accelerate this is really sensitive. impunity and take it to a place where these railways actually started telling themselves we've won. it's just a matter of reading the palestinians, the terms of surrender part the that was the normalization of course, which will never designed, of course, to help the palestinians situation. what those did was again it, it accelerated these trend inside israel. and what israel has woken up to the ana suggested in this latest round of fighting, cuz it's not just about gods with what happened in east jerusalem. what happened inside these read it so with the palestinian citizens of protest in the west bank, palestinian refugees and others in jordan coming to the border the attempt to desegregate and atomize, the palestinians, and defeat them has failed. and the failure of the oslo process means the if we have a circle back to something, and i believe we will, it's just as likely, if not more,
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to be more of an equal right. struggle about what this one physical space is role is created. looks like perhaps all of south africa than it is going to be 2 parties . lycos low negotiating separation. that's a full line which has shifted only just ask you bart, whether in your discussions with mon, i'm sure i'm sure you're still speaking with her. does she herself think that was a completely unique moment or does she think that there is a role for players that are outside of the classic formal negotiations camp because you know that the process is not yielded. yeah. much success. i do think that diplomats in general, like, like mona, are always seeking ways to create other solutions rather than force. but that's, so that's the thing that they've always spoken to me about. but they were trying to be facilitators have changed. they weren't trying to pretend it was up to them to make the change itself. thank you, but generally just ask you about the palestinian side in negotiations for
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a moment. i'm. i'm sure you work with cyber comp delete. sy, barracka who died this past year of cove. it daniel introduced me to him in ramallah years ago. and i think that the, the question is, is there, i remember talking to me was just sort of seemed exhausted. all the time with the middle east piece of business as he called it, of, of this ongoing process that would never have an end, you know, as negotiator, looking at the new new team of folks that are trying to move this forward. do are there or are there ways to enhance their power? in this process, we used to have a cor tab. there used to be other nations. it involved. is it better the mike, should the united states pull back and let other stakeholders come in? what are your thoughts about adding up palestinian leverage in this process if that's possible? i think that we need to move away from the to dreaded words peace process. and instead, be focusing on different mechanisms to hold israel to account to,
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to make sure that israel pay the price for continuing to deny palestinians their freedom. and this is why what we're seeing now, instead of people who are rushing to get involved in peace process moves are instead people who are trying to push for boy cuts of israel divestment from israel and economic sanctions to be placed on israel as well as the israel legally accountable through the international criminal court. i firmly believe that we tried that route of the peace process and all that it yielded was a level of both sides of them. and in fact, rather than both sides of them, it was mostly that palestinians had to swallow whatever it is that israel was doing and simply accepted and were now not at that stage anymore. we're at a stage now where people are saying enough is enough. we live for generations under israel's military rule. it's time for us to have our freedom and if it means pushing for boycotts divestment sanction,
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that's the route that we're going to be taking. and it's just a question of time before we see that this palestinian leadership either fall or ends up ends up taking on that same language and pushes for divestment the same way that the ansi did in south africa. daniel, i want to get the last few seconds to you to see if you were to change any of the elements as you look at the real mass, the we're looking at the world as it is right now, not the world. we like it to be. what would you change to get us into a different course? what we've been talking about, which is accountability and cost free occupation on these railey side. because the alternative to violence isn't always negotiations. you're not always in a negotiation. of course you can negotiate the sensation of all guilty, but sometimes the alternative is non violent protest. it generating, acquiring leverage. it's sanctioning a site that is violating what it should be held to under international law. last,
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the crucial missing ingredient at this moment, hopefully in another period, it will look different, but that's where we're stuck right now. maximum. impunity breeds bad behavior and bad strategy, which is also bad for is re well, fascinating conversation and sobering. i'd like to thank you all for being with us in newton, massachusetts deanna bu, to former legal advisor to the palestinian peace negotiations in london. daniel levy for me is really government advisor and peace negotiator. and with me here in the studio bartlett's year, the director of our slow, the feature film, which premieres this saturday may 29th on h. b o. c. it. so what's the bottom line? if anyone were to come around today talking about a durable piece where palestinians and israelis live as equals and freedom and safety, people would ask them, what do you smoking? but that's exactly the kind of far out thinking by a few people in norway that made osler happen. call me really optimistic, but why can't something like that happen again?
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it was such an out of the blue event at the time and it came with violence on the ground was raging and neither side one to think about peace or the other side's rights. sound familiar? i don't know if another office is achievable, but what i do know is it morally, we can't allow the status quo to continue. and that's the bottom line. ah, news. news. news, news. news vaccines a promising pause out of the sun demik. but implementing the greatest inoculation in history is testing the global community around the world. already
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a clear gap has emerged between rich nations and poor ones when it comes to vaccinating their populations from the geo politics to the pure economics. the misinformation, the latest developments, what's going on here is very different for a stop. the vaccine comes in the form of a nasal spray. special coverage of the colona virus pandemic on a jessina black and brown immigrant women at the mercy of the private prison corporation for lines investigate allegations of medical abuse of women held it a privately run immigration detention facility in rural georgia. you still don't know what happened here saying that you don't have a chance to read everything. an ordeal exposed by a nurse turned whistled our blow the whistle a 1000 times over. if i had no consent, surgery scandal, in immigrant detention on al jazeera, how does that seem from a league? draw the big crowd. why does the irish flag fly high? you got this club?
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what is it about celtic that has the world over healing them on politics? and football goes with the oppressed around the world, the the friends who make football on the me hello, i'm fully back the boy and, oh, how we look at our main stories on al jazeera, molly's constitutional court has named the colonel who led a military coup. this week, as a nation's entering leader, as he may go to has promised to hold elections early next year. the cool was molly's 2nd. within a year. nicholas hunk reports from the capital by michael despite international condemnation show support of the nation's independence. where for molly's military gentle leader i see me go into.

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